Replacement of lath and plaster ceiling problem

[johnt0215]

Anyone give any advice on the following, we live in a Edwardian flat circa 1906 (Glasgow) which has (had) a lathe & plaster ceiling deep cornice and mouldings on ceiling in a geometric pattern.
Due to a problem from the flat upstairs part of the ceiling parted from the lathe the insurance company inspected and recommended complete ceiling would have to be replaced, plaster ceiling was completely removed (leaving cornice in place)also lathe left in place and replaced with 15mm? plasterboard, replica mouldings fitted, replica ceiling rose fitted, cosmeticaly looks just as before.
My problem is before ceiling replaced we could hardly hear our upstair neighbours now we hear floorboard creaks, television, conversations,foot steps in fact the noise is unbearable at times and speaking to neighbours they hear a lot more noise from ourselves.
I have been in contact with the insurance who contacted the repairer (a well known ornamental plasterwork repairer in our area) who after inspecting made the statement " thats the way we always carry out these repairs and we've never had any complaints before".
Are there any members who are skilled at plastering and have knowledge of repairs to ceilings advise wether I have to accept this repair or can I legally insist they address the problem I have been left with?
I have a book "The Tenement House Manual" which states that intermediate ceiling repairs (our flat)"replacement of lathe and plaster with plasterboard should be two layers of plasterboard two layers of plaster" can anyone confirm wether this is correct procedure?
Also are there building regulations regarding fire resistance between the two flats as 15mm platerboard compared to probably 50mm of very dense Edwardian plaster dose not seem much of a barrier.
The last thing I need is the ceiling to have to come back down to fit soundproofing but will obviously accept this if thats the answer although I have now got myself in a bit of a battle between the repairer (who obviously does not want to redo the job) and the insurance company who dont want to pay for the job to be redone.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers!

 

[skier-hughes]

Advice I can give is; it's not for you to speak to repair man, you need to speak only with insurance company. They need to deal with repair man.

 

[Penners]

I agree with Graham. You should tell the insurance company (in writing) that you are dis-satisfied with the repair, with a full explanation as to why.

 

[chuckey]

As said its not for you to get too technical, but there are some good websites for "acoustic isolation". I use 2 X 10mm plasterboard each side of a interior wall AND stuff the cavity with at least 4" of glass fibre, again there are some special acoustic dampening quilts available.
My mother-in-law lived in a gerry built bungalow and from the kitchen, you could hear how many sheets of toilet paper some was using in the loo down the corridor, the other side of the utility room - nice! ( hence my pre-occupation with sound isolation).
Frank

 

[Ian Bond]

TMI Frank, TMI!!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Does Part E of the building regs apply for remedial works to existing flats?

Might be worth being aware of the regs when dealing with the insurance company, even if its just knowing what 'get out clauses' they could pull out for non-compliance.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADE_2003.pdf

I lived in a (badly converted) Edwardian terrace flat conversion for a number of years. Took me a while to discover the source of the strange noises that were plaguing me.

Upstairs neighbour, practising his golf putting. For hours on end. Fortunately he got fed up with that hobby. And became a DJ.

Have they got carpets fitted above? Just wondering if some sort of acoustic carpet underlay can be fitted to help, if the ceiling can't be ripped out and redone?

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/soundproofing/A10underlay_doc.htm

I bought stuff from this firm to insulate my bathroom partition - planks one side, bead and butt board the other. Makes no difference really, as sound gets under the floor!

Just as a bit of additional info, I live in a terrace now. The joists abut in the single skin stone party walls. It wouldn't make much difference how much insulation I stuck on the party walls - the joist do a great job of carrying sound between the properties.

Good luck - hope you can find a way to make the insurance company see that the work done is not up to the required standard, and remedy it. I think you've got a good case.

Your upstairs neighbours are also affected by this, which considering that the problem resulted from their flat is I suppose fair. Hopefully you can stay on good terms, and join forces to get the problem sorted out, as it will benefit both parties.

 

[Ian Bond]

FYI - lath and plaster ceilings are repairable, with the right knowledge and techniques. I've fixed several condemned ceilings myself. Admittedly I don't know how bad your ceiling was, so it could well have been beyond repair anyway.

A search of PPUK past posts will uncover plenty of advice on plaster repair.

Not much good to the OP, but it does demonstrate how effective these old lath and plaster ceilings are, and how worthwhile it is to save them.

Having said that - at least you retained the cornice and got replica mouldings, which is good news.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I've used "sounbloc" instead of normal plasterboard on ceilings, and so far have been happy with it.

 

[johnt0215]

Thanks for everyones input on this one, a rep from the insurance company and a rep from the repairers are coming Wednesday morning to discuss the problem so maybe I'll have some good news (or not!) although they've all been out and seen (heard) the problem for themselves.
When I'd to sign of the acceptance form for the repair work I duly noted on the form that the the repair was unacceptable reference noise, also I lettered the insurance at the same time so its all been logged.
It had been suggested the ceiling could be lowered as its 11ft+ at present but you choose to live in a period property for the features and the cornice and mouldings add character to the whole room (all other features intact picture rails, fireplace etc) so I'm not willing to lose that so its catch 22.
It's not a listed building so I dont think I've much chance of talking them into replacing the lathe & plaster LOL!
I'll keep everyone posted after the meeting Wednesday.
Regards

 

[Penners]

a rep from the insurance company and a rep from the repairers are coming Wednesday morning to discuss the problem so maybe I'll have some good news (or not!) although they've all been out and seen (heard) the problem for themselves.

Well, yes, but of course they didn't experience the sound levels before the problem arose and the work was done, so they have no real point of "before-and-after" comparison.

 

[Ian Bond]

At least they're coming round to discuss the problem, so fingers crossed and get yourself prepared with all the necessary facts and regulations.

And maybe enlist the support of your neighbours.

I know what you mean about wishing to keep the high ceiling with its decoration - it would be a shame to cover it all up.

Best of luck

 

[Pford75]

recommended complete ceiling would have to be replaced, plaster ceiling was completely removed (leaving cornice in place)also lathe left in place and replaced with 15mm? plasterboard

Can you explain why the insurance company did not repair 'like for like'? Your premiums and cover are based upon what you had before (ie. Lath and plaster). The insurance company may have found it easier to repair with plasterboard, but if the laths were left, they were presumably not damaged and they should therefore have repaired with a lime plaster ceiling.

This fundamental change is the cause of the problems, although there's not much chance of having it changed now. But in future, I would insist on repairs as per the previous construction (your premiums are already higher based upon the fact that you live in a period building.) It's a bit like my car insurers wanting to repair some paintwork scratches with a tin of humbrol.....it's cheaper and more convenient for them....but absolutely not the same as what I had before.

I've had my own fairly lengthy wrangle with insurers in the past 12 months - I would suggest you keep a record of everything. Give the insurers a deadline for resolving the issue (say 28 days) and inform them that after that point, you will be referring to the insurance ombudsman.

 

[David Dyer]

Current Building Regulations for new build flats and conversions generally require minimum 60 minute fire resistance for separating/compartment floors. To achieve that requires 2 layers of plasterboard which will also help sound transmission.
Some suggestions are included in the PDF from British Gypsum.
http://www.british-gypsum.com/PDF/wb_tim%20joist%20ceiling_04_06.pdf

 

[Lime]

It isn't surprising that the plasterboard ceiling is nowhere near as good as lath and plaster.
The mass of plasterboard is tiny compared to the equivalent weight of lime plaster (sometimes inches thick) which would make a considerable difference to sound and vibration transmission.
Also the lime plaster would have been continuous whereas I would expect there are hidden breaks in the plasterboard readily allowing sound transmission.

 

[Penners]

Sound transmission/attenuation is a highly complex matter, involving many different factors. Air movement routes between source and receptor are important, but probably less likely to figure largely in your case. The ability of the sound to resonate within the cavity between the floor above and your ceiling is also critical - and probably one the most important factors. It is also the case that a stiff "leaf" like a sheet of plasterboard will tend to resonate, thereby transmitting sound, much more than the softer, more flexible and complex shape created by the back of a lath-and-plaster ceiling.

As Pford75 has said above, one suspects that the insurers have taken the cheapest route to replacing your ceiling and probably used a tradesman who didn't understand the ramifications of the change of materials. Indeed, they may not have understood this themselves.

I wonder what the insurers' reaction would be if you demanded that the situation be surveyed by an acoustic engineer (at their expense!).

 

[johnt0215]

View attachment 2View attachment 1

Dont know if this will work but some pics of the ceiling after removal of plaster from lathe prior to plasterboard being attached.

On a cheerier note the front door pic 3!! A nice example of hand painted glass.

 

[Penners]

John - that glass is fabulous! Classic art deco. I'm very jealous.

However, I'm not jealous that those (apparently) perfectly good laths weren't replastered properly - just had plasterboard slapped over them. What a waste!

 

[Moo]

I think that your insurance company should have the plasterboard (very carefully) removed and those wonderful laths plastered properly. Having seen those photographs, there's really no excuse for not replacing like with like.

And I second the Penrose comments about the glass, though I'm not sure I agree about its being Art Deco.

 

[Penners]

What are your thoughts about the glass, Moo? What little I know about art deco is limited to "that looks vaguely like Aubrey Beardsley, so it must be a.d.", so I'd welcome a more knowledgeable view.

 

[Moo]

I'm up there with you in the 'looks vaguely like' gang, Penners. I agree about the Aubrey Beardsley thing - it's just that I associate Art Deco with angles and segments of circles. I've always thought that the flowing curvaceous stuff is called Art Nouveau.

We must both wait patiently until some of them as have been eddicated explain the difference in a very simple way. Sort of Ladybird Books guide to art.

 

[Lime]

My vote is for Art Nouveau, turn of the century stuff.