Repairing lead/ chestnut guttering

[JoceAndChris]

Hi

My dad is threatening to come over this week and squirt some "stuff" into the lead lined chestnut gutters that encircle the house. Should I let him? I suppose it needs repairing with lead but I really don't know where to begin with this.

The gutters are mainly in good condition but there are one or two leaks which I understand cause significant damp build up over time.

Any thoughts on how to repair them simply would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Joce

 

[biffvernon]

Oo, can you describe in a bit more detail so I can add something to my Wooden Gutters page.
Sorry, I don't know the answer to your problem other than get a (real) plumber. I wouldn't think it can be too difficult to find the leak and fix it by replacing the offending piece of lead with something that matches the original. Lead sheet comes in various thicknesses, called code 1, code 2 etc. I would be wary of Dad's squirty stuff.

 

[middi]

I think that your gutters are a surviving rarity and it would be better, as Biff suggested, to have a "proper" plumber to have a look with a view to repairing these correctly. They deserve it.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oo, can you describe in a bit more detail so I can add something to my Wooden Gutters page.

A very interesting page in a fascinating website-thanks Biff! I know where I can get new windows now!

I will try to descibe them, but really must learn how to use the digital camera so you can see.

The chestnut gutters were crafted by an expert carpenter 25 years ago to match the rotten Georgian gutters that were found. They are impressive, foot wide planks supported by smaller planks that look a bit like fancy skirting. The underside of the gutters have squares of moulded wood glued (?) on at 6 inch intervals so the impression is one of a crenelated moulding which matches the crenelated stone porch. They look like they've been varnished. The thick lead laps over the wood like thick icing on a cake, creating a U shape from above. The lead down pipes in the corners of the building are original and fit into the gutters. Husband has to go up at 3 month intervals and swoosh out the leaves, but as the gutters are only 14 feet from the ground it is not so scary. We are in a high, windy location so drying out should take place well, where it doesn't is because of modern inappropriate materials as I've remarked elsewhere. The wood appears to be in very good condition although a roofer has told us we will need to replace the lead in the next few years. It's hard to know if this is right, or if he was just scare-mongering for work.

 

[Penners]

A plumber (as Biff said - a proper one, who can solder lead) probably wouldn't charge you too much to re-solder the lead - depending of course on how much repair is needed.

 

[chuckey]

According to the lead association the length of continuos lead should not exceed 1.5m. If the lead is "longer" when it gets hot it expands, because its soft, it buckles, when it gets cold it shrinks but because its so heavy and weak, the ripples don't pull out, the flat bit just gets thinner. When its laid to a slope like on a cathedral roof, its just slowly stretches and moves downhill. For flashings which exceed this length they should be fixed using an overlapping hook joint which allow a degree of movement.
So thats the basic problem, you could re-lay the gutter on say three layers of polythene, which if you are lucky will act as a slip membrane (think greasy surface), allowing the total length to expand and contract( allow say 1/2" movement on the ends?). Hook joints won't work because they will either leak or sieze up with muck and won't move.
You can now see why we don't use lead gutters anymore, soldered copper gutters will last 100 years.
Proper leadworker and some plumbers "burn" lead, using a white hot oxy-acetylene pin sized flame and actually just melt the lead at the joint, adding a slither of lead if required. Because only a very small amount of the lead item is melted, its more akin to lead welding.
Soft soldering lead is easy, the problem is over heating it and causing it to melt accidently.
Frank

 

[biffvernon]

Polythene and a white hot oxy-acetylene pin sized flame don't sound like very period methods. And if you weld the pieces of lead together don't you then have a long piece of lead - with the problems that you outlined?

 

[Jon Maine]

Code 4 lead = 1.5m length
Code 5 lead = 2m length
Code 6 lead = 2.25m length
Code 7 lead = 2.5m length
Code 8 lead = 3m length

Also dependent on square area so if to wide the length comes down, not in the instance of gutters though.

To weld lead it is called burning and most definately is not and does not include solder(ing)

Every length of lead should have a vertical step of 2" at its lower end. The lower sheet should be dressed up this step and rebated into the top of the timber step flush so the upper layer runs flat over the top of it. Also due to expansion and contraction only the top third of the lead should have any fixings in it, which must be either copper or stainless steel. Apart from the steps the gutter should have a fall of 1 in 80. Also it should be laid on a geo textile membrane to allow it to slide whilst expanding and contracting.

In your instance unlike a central valley gutter steps are probably impossible to form.

There is a a material which has been developed to overcome this issue called T-Pren. A neoprene expansion joint with lead bonded either side and warranty of 50 years. I suspect this is what you need installing. No gunk or mastic please.

See http://www.leadsheetassociation.org.uk/html/1469.html

 

[Lime]

I think Jon Maine has it spot on.
I totally agree with his advice.
Lead needs to be free to move.
In an ordinary day it can expand and contract 100s of times.
Perhaps the gutters may be deep enough and short enough to encompass steps?
Other than that the T-pren is the way to go.

 

[andrew gayton]

There is a a material which has been developed to overcome this issue called T-Pren. A neoprene expansion joint with lead bonded either side and warranty of 50 years. I suspect this is what you need installing. No gunk or mastic please.

I was just going to say that. The system works very well.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Many thanks to all of you for your kind and experienced advice: I will print this out and keep it safe for future repair work. The previous owner was an expert metal worker, I now understand why he left us a full welding kit. (which we promptly got rid of; why does understanding come too late?!)

I ventured up on the ladder today. To me, the lead seems in great condition except for one tiny crack which I am afraid I have let my dad fill with Isoflex as we are too broke to get in a lead-worker. The streams of water are coming from the roof and then behind the guttering and down the walls. As the roofer who quoted for us surmised, the only thing keeping us dry is the sheet of stuff under the slate tiles. The slate tiles (original), he said, at the moment are purely decorative.

I would imagine we should have a new roof before expensive work on the guttering?

Starting to doubt my sanity in buying this place.

 

[Penners]

Starting to doubt my sanity in buying this place.

Jocelyn - all period property owners have that very thought several times a day/week/month/year (delete as applicable).

The moment this worry pops into your head, I recommend imagining yourself in a B*v*s Box, on a large executive development of perhaps 250 properties. It's probably called something like 'Badger's Meadow', and lies some five miles from the nearest badger... or meadow.

The feeling will soon pass.

 

[Lime]

..much more likely to have been built on top of the set.

 

[JoceAndChris]

The feeling will soon pass.

Thanks for those cheering words. The birds were deafening today and the bunnies were all going crazy for eachother so I have no right to be miserable.

I would be much more miserable in Badger's Meadow where instead of those cheering sights I would stare out of my UPVC windows at the next identical box.

 

[Moo]

And you wouldn't have met all the lovely PPUK people, either.

 

[JoceAndChris]

And you wouldn't have met all the lovely PPUK people, either.

That's right Moo!

 

[Penners]

The birds were deafening today and the bunnies were all going crazy for each other

Living in the country is hell, eh?