Renovation of Sash Windows

[MatthewC]

The renovation of our seven sash windows is not high on my list of priorities, considering the overall state of the place (see my blog at http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/).

However, in removing sodden unattached plaster from a bedroom wall, I uncovered an interesting "feature" of a sash window which is causing me some concern. I've read a fair bit (here and elsewhere) about renovating sash windows and this normally says that it is actually quite easy as you just have to remove the wood on the inside face of the window frame which gives access to the sash weights and allows removal of the windows etc.

This looks like a fairly normal sash window and the inner faces of the side members are about half an inch thick, one piece top to bottom.
I had expected that there would be an enclosed box for the weights on either side of the frame but what I found was that there does not appear to be any side to the window frame (i.e.the side buried in the wall), so my expected box has only three wooden sides. Here's the gap on the right hand edge and the visible lead weight (with broken cord). Somehow the previous plaster was only done to the edge of the frame and did not fill the cavity for the weights.View attachment 1 So, if we manage to replaster in the same way (i.e. without interfering with the cavity for the weights), how will I (at later date) remove the windows to do the cords and repaint them? Is it really wise to remove the aforesaid complete inside face on each side? This appears to me likely to do significant damage to the material and possibly give me a window in a dangerous structural state .

Advice please! Is this normal and I am worrying needlessly? Since we are now plastering, this is now fairly urgent.

 

[Penners]

In my limited experience, access to the weight box is more normally gained through pockets in the inside face of the box. To dismantle the window, you prise off the staff bead (working from the inside, it's the one nearest you that holds the lower sash in place), then lift out the lower sash. Then prise off the parting bead (the one that runs up the middle, holding the sashes apart). You should then be able to see and prise off the pocket cover(s) that give access to the weight box.

Be as careful as you can with removing the beads and you might keep them in a good enough condition to re-use them. But if they're thoroughly painted into place you may break them and have to buy replacements.

PS: Can you move the top sash? If not it's probably stuck due to layers of paint. Be careful when you try to release this sash - if the weight that you can see has come off it, it might fall rather suddenly!

 

[Feltwell]

Hi Matthew

***Usually*** (he says with caution! There's always an exception..) sash weights are removed through a "pocket". A 3 sided box to hold the weights is quite common, I've seen that on plenty of Victorian windows. The 4th "side" you don't see as it's often up against brickwork.

Apologies as I don't know how much you know about sash windows and the terminology for the various different parts. To replace a sash cord normally you would, working from the inside throughout:-

- Remove the staff bead - this is the beading running round the inside of the visible frame, that keeps the inner (bottom) sash in place.
- Lift the inner (bottom) sash out. If a sash cord is still connected then take out the pins, tie a knot in it and let it rewind into the frame, so the knot rests against the pulley.
- Remove the parting bead - this is the wooden beading that run between the 2 sashes. It *should* just be a friction fit, but it will invariably be gummed up with paint and sometimes a past owner will have pinned it in place.
- Lift the outer (upper) sash out as per the inner sash.

At the bottom of the inside of the sides of the sash box frame, you should be able to make out on each side a removeable piece of timber - the parting bead would run across this. It is almost certainly well painted up and stuck in place, run a knife round it first. These should just be a friction fit and can be carefully prised out, but again watch out for past owners who may have nailed or screwed it in place. It's through this that you access your sash weights and can replace cords.

When putting it all back together again, it's worth replacing the pulleys if they are old & past their best, and using new staff & parting beads with brush seals built in. You can also rout the mid-rail to fit a brush strip there. Reddiseals and Mightons are two commonly used suppliers.

Edit - Penners beat me to the submit button!

 

[Penners]

Penners beat me to the submit button!

But how nice for Matthew to have two such...er... experts (ahem!) in complete agreement! :wink:

 

[MatthewC]

Thanks for the replies, guys, and the very detailed procedure, Feltwell.

Is the staff bead the slightly differently profiled bit of wood that you can see (by my right thumb) in the second photo above? The extreme left is part of the bottom sash, and I'm not sure if the rounded part is detachable from what I have called the inner face. (You're quite right, I do not know the correct terminology!)

However, from what you say, I shall be happy to get the plastering done now, and attack the windows at a suitable
opportunity!

 

[Feltwell]

But how nice for Matthew to have two such...er... experts (ahem!) in complete agreement! :wink:

Ermm, yeah..... Hey, if nothing else at least we'll be consistently wrong!

Is the staff bead the slightly differently profiled bit of wood that you can see (by my right thumb) in the second photo above?

Yes - it's the curved bit that's to the left of your thumb. It will just be pinned to the frame, you should be able to carefully prise it away.
Have a look for the sash pocket covers - open the bottom sash and you should be able to make them out. If the sash is completely painted shut then look from the outside, you should still be able to make out where they are (but you can't get them out without removing the sashes first as above).

PM me your email address and I'll send you a scan from work of a sash window renovation guide I've got.

One final thing - people tend to think sash windows are complicated and so very difficult to repair. Actually, I'd say they are one of the easiest windows to repair, once you've got your head round how they work and how they are assembled.

 

[CatherineB]

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/caring-for-your-sash-case.pdf

This might help. I know I was surprised at how simple it looked to record our sash windows, when I watched someone else do it. I even thought I would have a go myself next time one breaks :mrgreen:

 

[philmac1944]

Good luck Matthew. Just couple of tips. Make a small wedge to jam the sash cord into the pulley; this will stop
the weight crashing down ( a mistake we all make first time out ! ). Run a knife down the paintwork before you
prise off the staff bead; this could be the difference between saving it or losing it. Modern staff beads are a
different dimension. rgds Phil

 

[CliffordPope]

As to whether there should be an enclosed box, ones I have seen have only 3 sides. To stop the weight from catching on rough unplastered stonework inside the box, and also to separate the two weights, there are usually thin strips of wood simply loose inside, retained in place by the weights. If these are missing or displaced, then you get all sorts of noises and erratic operation, as the weights either catch on the stonework or clang against each other.

 

[CatherineB]

Ah yes, wot Clifford said. We have those, and I wondered why they were loose!
Probably simple for someone with your skills to cut to size, Matthew.

 

[Penners]

Is the staff bead the slightly differently profiled bit of wood that you can see (by my right thumb) in the second photo above?

Yes - it's the curved bit that's to the left of your thumb. It will just be pinned to the frame, you should be able to carefully prise it away.


(Just keeping up the unanimity, Feltwell. :wink: )

 

[Feltwell]

Is it me or is there an echo round here?? :wink:

 

[Feltwell]

Modern staff beads are a different dimension. rgds Phil

Not usually too much of a problem with the staff beads - as they are pinned on, you can usually live with new ones being slightly different to the originals. Reddiseals do a reasnoble range of sizes, I would have thought you'd find one that is close enough.

http://www.reddiseals.com/acatalog/sash_window_timber_staff_beads.html

The brush seals don't just stop the drafts by the way - they also make the window much easier to slide open and shut.

Parting beads being a different thickness would be a pain, as they should be held into their grooves just by friction - maybe luck, but I've always found new ones that are OK or just need a little easing with some glasspaper to make them fit.

 

[Feltwell]

As to whether there should be an enclosed box, ones I have seen have only 3 sides. To stop the weight from catching on rough unplastered stonework inside the box, and also to separate the two weights, there are usually thin strips of wood simply loose inside, retained in place by the weights. If these are missing or displaced, then you get all sorts of noises and erratic operation, as the weights either catch on the stonework or clang against each other.

I *think* they're called feathers?? Anyway, yes, they are an essential I'd say, but if missing /broken you can use almost anything suitable, they aren't fixed in place and are hidden. I use - dare I say it - MDF - because I happened to have a nice thin sheet in the garage. A thin piece of ply or even perspex would do just as well.