Renovation advice....

[carrief]

I am after some general advice on the best way to handle a renovation (victorian detatched property). We would be planning on this being a long term home & are happy to spend the money getting it in good shape so that it is good for many years to come.

The thought of trying to manage everything is daunting so my hope is to use a good project manager. I am worried about making mistakes & so am really after advice as to where to start & how to go about getting the right people in.

To give you an idea the property is in need of attention to the roof coverings rainwater goods, removal/replacement of render, refurb of windows & then wiring/plumbing internally.

Please does anyone have any advice as to where to start or indeed any 'what not to dos'?

 

[Pford75]

Welcome to the forum.

Hopefuly you'll get lots of advice and views, although they may not be aligned :wink:

Whilst many of us are managing renovation projects ourselves (or have done in the past), you are right to consider the need for a project manager. If you have never done anything like this before and if you are concerned that you don't have the right level of knowledge (or time) to manage the project yourself, then I would recommend getting some help (assuming you can afford it).

I see 3 main options (with a 4th possible depending on where you live and your local council).

1. You employ a main contractor (builder) for all of the works and allow him to manage all of the trades. This will be slightly more expensive than employing trades direct yourself, but the contractor manages materials, scheduling of works etc. You need to be very clear with the contractor on the exact spec'n of the works he is doing (ie. not just 'removal/replacement of render'....but how is it being removed, what is it being replaced with, how is it being put back on, what is happening to the old render once removed etc.) This can work if you have some basic knowledge and are happy to spend time drafting the specification, but you (and the contractor) may not know what materials are best/inappropriate)

2. You employ a surveyor to project manage. They can either just write the spec'n mentioned above, or can manage the whole project. Ensure that whoever you choose has experience with traditional buildings (ideally something similar to yours) and understands the need for / benefits of traditional building materials (eg. lime). They will handle all of the specificatio and ordering of works.

3. Use a conservation architect. More appropriate when a renovation involves more major changes to a building eg. change of layout, extensions etc. They can handle everything the surveyor (2) handles, but will also advise on layout etc. Pros - valuable if you are undertaking major works, Cons - more expensive

4. The fourth option is to work with your Conservation Officer (they will need to be involved in 1-3 as well). Depending on your CO (and the level of expertise varies greatly around the country), they may be able to advise you on the works proposed, the specification etc. This can enable you to bridge the gap in your own knowledge and work with a contractor. However, they are usually very busy and not all can dedicate as much time as you might need. But worth sounding them out anyway before you make any choice from 1-4 above

 

[AMc]

I would do a search on this site's 'products and services' section (above) for "Architects and Surveyors in your area. You can also ask the Royal Institute of Architects to recommend some local practices. http://www.architecture.com/UseAnArchitect/FindAnArchitect/FindAnArchitect.aspx
You should also try and find some local building firms with good period property experience and get them to look at the job. They may be able to recommend a surveyor/architect or even have them on staff/retainer.
Get customer recommendations from them and speak to them to find out how they were.

You will almost certainly need good plans (take your time), then apply for building control approval, listed building consent (if listed) and possibly planning permission too before you can begin. The right surveyor/architect will help you through this - expect it to cost quite a lot of money before you begin work.

If you can afford to then I would get a main contractor (building firm) on a fixed price contract so you know where your money is going with an architect/surveyor assessing the work independently. We went via a self build approach where I was project manager/site manager/quantity surveyor and now sole builder/dcorator - in the end we've spent as much as the median quote we got that we couldn't afford and we're not finished so I may not have saved much if anything with this approach.

If you can afford to then live somewhere else while the work takes place and visit the site daily. We stayed here and the combination of needing water/heat/electricity permanently connected and all our junk being moved from room to room over and over again has definitely cost us more money in delays than moving out to rent for 6 months would have.

 

[christianb]

Hi Carrie,

The thought of trying to manage everything is daunting so my hope is to use a good project manager.

Is the thought of shelling out a massive amount more in cash even more daunting?

Your overview suggests that this is a fairly big job, and therefore so are the savings you can make by keeping on top of it all. Truth be told, in general tradesmen aren't the world's best at purchasing - they're just focused on doing the job in hand. As such, I'd start doing some homework on the best places to get your raw materials - and this will mean splitting things between lots of different places rather than just whacking everything on an account at one of the big builders' merchants. A bad, bad move.

I've brought in projects between 20% and 50% below budget without cutting corners because of good sourcing. In fact, I've been thinking about writing an article about how to do it for some time. But pricing is at the core of the matter.

For example, you talk about roof coverings. In this case I'd keep an eye on exchange rates and look at slate imported from where the currency is down against sterling. Not so long agao the dollar was very weak which made Brazilian slate upto 60% cheaper than many of the alternatives.

And, finally, while you're going to need specialists to do much of the work (ELECSA or NICEIS qualified electricians, for example), do as much as possible yourself.

Good luck.

Christian

 

[MdB]

What others have already said makes a lot of sense, however I would add one additional point. Read up on everything and ask as many questions as you possible can before deciding on anything. Posting here was a good way to start

Three years ago I knew very little. I now know an awful lot more and also know where to start looking for the things I know little about. Being in a position of knowledge when dealing with builders and the like can make a great difference in getting the job done right and for a sensible price.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Have you bought the house Carrie? Have you somewhere else to live whist the works take place? Have you a time frame in mind?

You mention roof, render, windows, plumbing and rewiring. As has just been discussed been discussed in the thread "Timber Spouting", the roof should be first. You'll need wiring and plumbing before you live there, but I don't see why you shouldn't be there when the render's being done or the windows. Once your rooms are wired and plastered, you could take a room by room approach with decorating and DIY- this will really keep costs down. And it's very important, I think, if you're living in the house that you have at least one room to retreat to and that's a calming space if the rest is chaos.

And I'd spend any reading time you usually spent on newspapers etc reading this forum and other literature, like the SPAB Old House handbook. You really will need to become an expert or tradesmen will get the house they want, not what you want.

You will need to form opinions about every little thing that makes up a house,heating, lighting, switches, floors, mouldings, layout, traditional or contemporary, windows, colours, fixtures and fittings. Maybe you already have those opinions, I didn't, and still don't in some cases. Opinions come from knowledge and experience; arm yourself!

If you haven't committed to this yet you need to be absolutely sure that this project can dominate your life for at least the next 5 years, budgets spiral away when you are working and everything takes three times as long as you would expect. It's not a calm way to live, and it's difficult not to get house-obsessed. Living in chaos puts a strain on the most harmonious of relationships and even your own happiness, for this reason I refuse to and am spreading my project over 30 years. (now on Year 2 and have music room, chickens, rose garden and half a bedroom done - still need roof, rainwater goods, render, removal of cement). My way wouldn't suit everyone,but don't underestimate taking on something of this magnitude and don't expect that it will take place quickly and smoothly, it won't.

On the plus side it's creative, rewarding, fascinating and wonderful to see a house transform under your instructions - good luck and keep us posted!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Sorry, I want to say this as well, because I think it's important.

There's a skimpy way of doing up a room or a house, and a thorough way. The skimped approach seems to be favoured by most people I know, and I respect why. It's the approach that licks a covering of paint over all surfaces and perhaps replaces visibly broken things and carpets. It's quick and relatively cheap, and creates good first impressions with your family and guests.

The thorough way is the only way acceptable to me. How are the windows - are they functioning correctly? Do they need some paint stripping to improve useability? If they're plastic, do they need replacing with something more in keeping? How is the plaster - sound and good? Damp? What's the wiring like or light fittings and do they need redoing? What's the heating provision for the room, is it adequate and pleasing to the eye? If there's an old fire, what does it need? Is the chimney swept and functioning? What's the state of the floor, and the harmony of its appearance with the rest of the room and house? And then the decisions about paint, wallpaper, fixtures and fittings. Curtains? Furniture appropriate to the use of the room? (that's something only living in it will teach you). It goes on and on, but only when you've addressed each one of those and come up with the best solution money or time allows will you be happy with the room. They aren't decisions,in the main, that a project manager would make for you and nor should they be.

You'll need to decide which approach you're happy with, or, a blend of the two using some quick fixes to tide yourselves over until it can be done properly.

 

[carrief]

Thank you - all advice is very much appreciated - a lot of food for thought. I'm sure I will have many more questions to come but that is a great start.

The house is liveable at the moment - it isn't a total wreck - but in need of some attention though as I say. We're keen not to just patch it up so that it is in good shape for many years to come.

We do not intend to do the work ourselves (cheating maybe...) but lack of time & experience are probably good enough reasons to call in the experts. I think time spent finding the right people may pay off in the long run. I appreciate that the cost will be considerably more though but we are viewing it as a long term home rather than for investment purposes.

I have to say that I have found this site to be the most informative of all that I looked at (& I have looked at a lot). Thanks

 

[skier-hughes]

We are in year 5 of our 30 year plan
Our house is totally liveable to us, but horrific to many of our friends.
We spent a year living in the house as it was, this enabled us to find out what we really wanted from the house, how we saw it developing under our care, do we need to change this or change that etc.
Then we started on the kitchen, ooops, no good if you've got to do the upstairs room as well, as all that lovely new kitchen will be spoiled, so worked stopped on kitchen when it was totally bare and work started on bedroom upstairs.
We are now in the finishing straight, things are being put back rather than taken away, like plaster on the walls!!!!

Christams should see us cooking and eating in the kitchen for the first time in 4 years, then we'll take a break for a few months before we tackle the bathroom and snug.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Carrief,

skier-hughes wrote:

We are in year 5 of our 30 year plan

We are in year 11 of our 5 year plan, and much still to be done.
But it's been a great learning experience. Amongst other things I have learned to allow realistic amounts of time for jobs by applying Bods rule: think of how long the job will take, double that, move up to the next unit of time measurement. So a job that you thought would take 2 weeks will take 4 months.

Another thing learned is the 'Time spent planning is never wasted', nor for that matter is time spent researching property history, appropriate building techniques, availability of materials & fittings etc.

Getting the right people in to do work is vital if you're not going to DIY. Be very fussy - get recommendations, see previous work, ask about qualifications & experience, don't be badgered into using anybody your're not happy with. Sadly, in my experience, many jobbing tradespeople give poor or even incorrect advice when dealing with older properties, leading to inappropriate (sometimes even damaging) work being done. Search for the people who do it right. They may not be cheap, but the final result will be what you want.

If you are not prepared to develop your own expertise then you really do need a building professional to hold your hand. Idealy this would be an architect or surveyor with conservation experience - somebody who will consider the whole state of the building and give real advice based on good practice.

Finally, take your time . Live with the house, discover its faults and hidden gems, dream a bit, talk a lot, plan things out, tackle things a bit at a time. Get the roof sorted first, then relax and enjoy the journey.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've learned enough from the experienced people here not to set a fixed timescale, so I can only say that I'm just over 2 years into my project and won't be over-running. :wink:

Andrew's last sentence says it all as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Nigel Watts]

We are in year 11 of our 5 year plan

This is precisely where I am. As someone who enjoys the journey more than the arrival I am quite content about it but it is a major bone of contention with 'er indoors. With my curtains finished it's back to the more mundane tasks of fixing the children's rooms and getting on with the new bathroom. My problem is that my head is always so full of new and absurdly over-ambitious, impactical projects.

 

[masochists-r-us]

We are in year 11 of our 5 year plan

As someone who enjoys the journey more than the arrival I am quite content about it but it is a major bone of contention with 'er indoors.

We're in year 4 of our 3 year plan and still hardly off the starting blocks so I can empathise with your wife, being one of those who enjoys getting there. There have been of late some heated debates about lack of progress, but a very posh new bath has bought Mr M some brownie points and a bit more time.
All I can say is if one more person says 'but it will be a fantastic when it's done' they may live to regret it.
Deciding to restore a period property is a bit like deciding to have children, ergo if you knew all that was involved you might not bother, but wouldn't life be dull without them.

 

[Tom]

Carrief,

skier-hughes wrote:

We are in year 5 of our 30 year plan

We are in year 11 of our 5 year plan, and much still to be done.

We're in year 14 of a 1 year plan and about to spend our 14th Christmas in a 2 bedroomed static caravan :shock: Fortunately, I have the mindset that this is a 2 bedroomed flat on wheels :lol:

I knew nothing of building, let alone period properties, when we bought this house and, indeed, thought it was 1900's rather than 1400's as it's not listed and virtually all of it's features were covered up. In fairness, we didn't particluarly want an older house that needed work!!

However, the journey has been fascinating and one that I wouldn't swap for the world. Sure, the learning curve is steep and at times I've been really scared of the decisions I've had to make as I've project managed this from the beginning. I have also said in the past that without this forum a huge percentage of the work we've done would not have been done and, in fact, we would have made horrendous mistakes to the detriment of the property. One of toughest parts was standing firm against what is a very male-dominated scene. The reassurance from people here gave me the courage to be determined in what I wanted to do and why I wanted to do it.

So, after all this, what's my advice? Read this forum, understand what you read (if you don't understand, say so...someone will explain it again) and don't be afraid to ask what might seem to be the most ridiculously simple questions. Most of us start at the very beginning and understand how overwhelming renovation can be. I would have been completely alone without the people here and I have a lot to be grateful for.

Don't be afraid of doing some of the work yourself. A lot of it isn't rocket science and the pride you will have in your home will be amazing, not to mention the money you'll save.

Most of all, enjoy what you do!! And keep us posted with pictures

Jaqy

 

[christianb]

Don't be afraid of doing some of the work yourself. A lot of it isn't rocket science and the pride you will have in your home will be amazing, not to mention the money you'll save.

I couldn't agree more. And you'll know and understand the structure of your home inside and out.

C.

 

[lou]

Thanks thanks thanks. This thread has been so useful to me - not least in adjusting my expectations, so perhaps we won't have the whole family to our Christmas lunch next year after all. I haven't found any costings for limecrete floors yet though. Does anyone have a ball park figure per metre? And we have to replace ALL but one of our windows. I'd love to have some made in the style that Fox and Raglan identified (they traipsed around Monmouthshire housees in the early 1900s) and noted our peasant cruck hall windows and are recorded in their book. They were 8 light transomed windows. Suspect this may be v.v. expensive to replace - does anyone know if the CO is likely to insist on these? At least that will help me justify this to my more frugal partner.

I'm trying to attach pics for the period porn lovers out there but suspect some are too 'big' (technical term..)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Lovely house Lou! And welcome to the forum!

Just a kindly word of advice about posting - start your own thread even if your problem is the same as someone else's. I think you have already been muddled up with another's flagstones once today.

You'll soon get the hang of it, and we're a very friendly lot.

I can't answer your other questions but hopefully by bumping this to the top someone else will.

Those windows sounded amazing!

 

[Jon Maine]

Thanks thanks thanks. This thread has been so useful to me - not least in adjusting my expectations, so perhaps we won't have the whole family to our Christmas lunch next year after all. I haven't found any costings for limecrete floors yet though. Does anyone have a ball park figure per metre? And we have to replace ALL but one of our windows. I'd love to have some made in the style that Fox and Raglan identified (they traipsed around Monmouthshire housees in the early 1900s) and noted our peasant cruck hall windows and are recorded in their book. They were 8 light transomed windows. Suspect this may be v.v. expensive to replace - does anyone know if the CO is likely to insist on these? At least that will help me justify this to my more frugal partner.

I'm trying to attach pics for the period porn lovers out there but suspect some are too 'big' (technical term..)

That looks lovely, limecrete floors can be costed easily will try to get info for you. If not speak to Ty Mawr or Mike Wye or even both.

As for the xmas thing it was 3 I missed, but then back to that size thing you mention, mine's bigger than yours.

 

[Anita]

We are on year 9 (and a half) of a 2 year project -ha! There's a lot of us about :lol:

 

[Nina]

Hi. We have just finished a mammoth repair/renovation on our home. It has taken over three years and we have finished early and more or less on budget. We did a fair amount of work ourselves but employed a building contractor who carried out the major jobs and had experience in period/listed properties. We also worked closely with our CO who was very helpful. We first made sure we were watertight (we had big damp issues), repaired roof and windows and had to replace stucco outside. Only then did we tackle inside, starting at the top of the house and working downwards as any work on the ground floor (ie new kitchen) would have been ruined by workmen and their tools and heavy boots (though they were really great). Lots of jobs were done by ourselves but we ensured that we also got away at times (holidays, seeing friends) so we did not go mad in all the mess. It was stressful living on site when all this was going on but always made sure that we had at least one decent room to escape to. It has been a great time and we have learned so much about the house and I have learnt so much about building works (not least from this site). Must admit that if we were going to do this again, we would make sure that one of us was not working. Both of us working full time and then coping with the sudden illness/care of two elderly relations certainly made the project much more difficult.