Renovating early 1700's timber framed farmhouse

[dans]

Hi all!

I've recently purchased a 'project' Norfolk timber framed farmhouse! This is my first major period project so please excuse my lack of knowledge; I'm learning as I go along! The house has had lots of money spent over the last 50 years, but not often the right things have been done to protect the structure! The house is structurally very sound, but has been 'let go' over the past 25 years and requires completely modernising!

I have two good builders, neither are specialists with timber framed buildings, but both I've worked with before and i can trust. It's important to me however, that all stages of this restoration are done properly and in keeping with traditional building techniques.

Now, apart from making sure the building is watertight (the roof needs some small repairs), what would be the general 'first steps' on renovating a timber framed building?

My plan is to remove plaster and any modern addition (fireplaces,etc), revealing all timbers, wattle & daub and other original features, room-by-room and repairing like-for-like materials then re-plaster in lime based plaster. I am going to leave stripping external cement render for spring/summer next year. I want to reveal a lot of the internal timbers and from reading posts on this forum, it is common to insulate the building externally within stud between render and original timber? Am I wasting my time and money making the inside look nice only to risk movement and cracking in the plaster when I strip and replace the external cement render next year?

Upstairs arrangement does also not suit modern living, so I again, strip everything down, repairing timber where required and rearrange living arrangement where timber structure allows??

This may sound like common sense steps to most and I'm sure my builders have their plans, I'm just paranoid that the job's done properly with the proper materials!

Your advice would be very much appreciated, but I'm really only looking for reassurance or redirection!!

Expect many other questions and pictures with each stage of ths project!

Regards,
Dan

 

[dans]

Finds so far...

Removed 70's fireplace to reveal...

Under 50 year old carpet...

Brickwork between some timbers...

And a mix of everything behind this wall (does anyone know why there are clay tiles under the plaster??)

Some wonky floors upstairs!!

 

[AMc]

Welcome to the forum.

Is the house listed?

If you're listed then making like for like repairs is obviously the thing to do with consultation with your local conservation officer and consents.
If you're not listed then major renovations are likely to require building control approval. If you renew more than 25% of a the wall (by removing and replastering or rendering) then you may be obliged to insulate to current standards (as outlined in Part L1B of the current regs). This may be difficult to do while leaving the internal timber exposed and not insulating externally and then rendering.
There are exceptions where you can show that the insulation isn't going to be cost effective by simple payback or is going to reduce the size of rooms by an unreasonable amount.
The main point being don't begin stripping everything back until you've worked out how you will comply with the regs or how you are going to justify not complying. It's tempting to get the hammer and chisel out but act in haste and repent at leisure.

Regarding builders then I was personally recommended Reeve Restoration (currently doing the church in Chapelfield in Norwich) and Willow Builders in the area. In the end I used a friend's barn conversion contractors but I'm brick built, unlisted and was managing the day to day build directly so felt I could use cheaper labour and do the research on techniques myself. It might be worth getting some independent opinions and quotes even if you decide to continue with your preferred builders.

 

[dans]

Thanks Amc!

The building is NOT listed.

Interesting regarding Building regs on insulation...

I plan to insulate from the outside of the timber, but November's obviously not the best time to start stripping and rendering the outside of the building! do you think they would relax the reg's on the promise of insulating next year? Are they relaxed at all??

Thanks,
Dan

 

[middi]

Hi dans

Post one or two pictures of the internal and external ( preferably external) if you can.

It would make it easier to see what are you going to restore

Middi

 

[Penners]

Welcome, dans. It sounds as though you have a fascinating project on your hands. And congratulations for taking the time and trouble to plan for sympathetic works in appropriate materials.

From your description of the house, it sounds very likely to be listed. As AMc says, it is vital that you apply for Listed Building Consent before you carry out any works that are anything other than a true like-for-like repair. Even then, it's a good idea to make contact with your local Conservation Officer and just explain what you're going to do. This avoids the risk of any misunderstanding later on and conveys to the CO the fact that you have the best interests of the building at heart.

So, let's look at a few of your questions and comments.

This is my first major period project so please excuse my lack of knowledge; I'm learning as I go along! The house has had lots of money spent over the last 50 years, but not often the right things have been done to protect the structure!

Don't worry about your lack of knowledge. Many of us on this forum probably started from that point and learned as we went along. But we do also have the great benefit of a number of specialists and professionals as regular contributors, who are very generous with their advice. It's also worth clicking on the "Advice" button at the top of the page - you'll find a wealth of articles and FAQs on many of the commonly encountered problems of period properties.

what would be the general 'first steps' on renovating a timber framed building?

My plan is to remove plaster and any modern addition (fireplaces,etc), revealing all timbers, wattle & daub and other original features, room-by-room and repairing like-for-like materials then re-plaster in lime based plaster.

I may be misjudging you, but that above statement sounds rather sweeping! Will you be removing only modern gypsum plaster, or old lime plaster, too? The reason for my question is to urge you not to remove any original fabric that is is still in a good or repairable condition.

what would be the general 'first steps' on renovating a timber framed building?

That depends on what the building needs. The old saying is that a house needs "a good hat and good boots" (in other words, the roof and the foundations need to be in good order), but after that every building is different. But as a general observation, I would suggest that you do everything necessary to make the place absolutely weathertight. After that, it's a question of planning your works in such a way that you proceed logically, with no need to undo any earlier works in order to undertake later works! For example, re-wiring and re-plumbing would obviously come before re-plastering.

from reading posts on this forum, it is common to insulate the building externally within stud between render and original timber?

The nost common way of insulating a timber-frame building is to insert as much insulation as possible within the cavity between the interior wall lining and the exterior wall rendering. The extent to which you can do this will, of course, depend on the width of the cavity. I suggest you come back and ask about this in more depth when you're starting to plan this job in detail.

Am I wasting my time and money making the inside look nice only to risk movement and cracking in the plaster when I strip and replace the external cement render next year?

I'm afraid that's impossible to predict. When to remove and replace the exterior rendering, the building might move around a bit, or it might not. In general I would expect some sort of movement, but any more precise advice is, I'm afraid, just guesswork. May I suggest, however, that if you're going to spending time and money on the interior of the house, it's perhaps not a good idea to do this in advance of removing all of its exterior weather protection. Damage to your beautiful new interior is not a certainty, but it's a risk.

I have two good builders, neither are specialists with timber framed buildings, but both I've worked with before and i can trust.

A good, trustworthy builder is worth his weight in gold. But I'm a bit worried about the fact that neither of yours are specialists in your type of building. How will you ensure that the thousand-and-one decisions about details of the ongoing work are correctly made? Who will carry out any necessary repairs to the frame... and so on?

As Middi says, do post some pictures! And do come back to ask any more questions at any time, and to keep us posted on your progress

 

[Flyfisher]

All good advice above. Research appropriate methods, plan lots, don't rush in. You may be in a greater rush than the house, after all it's been standing for a long time and won't fall apart in a couple of years. But do the wrong things and you could do more harm than good.

If the roof is leaking then that's the obvious place to start, not forgetting gutters, downpipes and soakaways.

Whereabouts (roughly) in Norfolk?

 

[Moo]

Do pay heed to Flyfisher's last question - There's a strong possibility that you're within spitting distance of several experienced and very knowledgeable people who would be only too pleased to come round and give you the benefit of their opinions on the spot.
For the rest of us - pictures, and yet more pictures......

 

[dans]

Hi all,

Sorry for my delayed responses, my account requires approval for every post I make prior to their submission, which seems to take hours!!

The property is 6 miles south of Norwich. Obviously any advice in person would be EXTREMELY appreciated! I want to do things right and thorough, but don't want to be overkill on the house either!

Many thanks to all! I'm very lucky to find a forum full of such helpful, knowledgable enthusiasts!!

Dan

 

[Penners]

Dan

I've PM'd you.

 

[AMc]

Thanks Amc!

The building is NOT listed.

Interesting regarding Building regs on insulation...

I plan to insulate from the outside of the timber, but November's obviously not the best time to start stripping and rendering the outside of the building! do you think they would relax the reg's on the promise of insulating next year? Are they relaxed at all??

Thanks,
Dan

From those pictures you've added it looks like you've already started!

The extent of the work will dictate if you need to submit full plans and wait for BC approval or if you can start work on a building notice or if you need approval at all. My work was major - knocking out walls, rebuilding structures, reroofing so I needed a full plans approval and a number of inspections. Your builders should know if/what approvals you may need.

There are some who simply don't tell building control at all esp. if it's all DIY but reputable builders are unlikely to be happy with that as they will end up with a stream of inspections and hold ups on jobs if BC believe they are prone to breaking the rules elsewhere.

With regard to the external render/internal decoration - the big question will be what condition is the timber frame in?
If you strip the cement next spring and discover that sole plates are rotten then I would expect any interior work being done now to be wasted time and money. If you can live with it until the spring and start outside then I think it might be wise. In general taking your time to plan and think will pay dividends in saving money and getting things right first time. A number of things I did without enough consideration have come back to bite me and I've ended up doing the same job twice - wasteful, expensive and depressing.

House looks great and I'm sure with the right care it will be an amazing home.

 

[dans]

From those pictures you've added it looks like you've already started!

Just excited to find out what's behind those horrid 60's fireplaces!! I've got two inglenooks downstairs and another fireplace upstairs in the master bedroom - you can see the outline of several fireplaces through the plaster!

The extent of the work will dictate if you need to submit full plans and wait for BC approval or if you can start work on a building notice or if you need approval at all. My work was major - knocking out walls, rebuilding structures, reroofing so I needed a full plans approval and a number of inspections. Your builders should know if/what approvals you may need.

There are some who simply don't tell building control at all esp. if it's all DIY but reputable builders are unlikely to be happy with that as they will end up with a stream of inspections and hold ups on jobs if BC believe they are prone to breaking the rules elsewhere.

With regard to the external render/internal decoration - the big question will be what condition is the timber frame in?
If you strip the cement next spring and discover that sole plates are rotten then I would expect any interior work being done now to be wasted time and money. If you can live with it until the spring and start outside then I think it might be wise. In general taking your time to plan and think will pay dividends in saving money and getting things right first time. A number of things I did without enough consideration have come back to bite me and I've ended up doing the same job twice - wasteful, expensive and depressing.

75% of the interior walls need re-plastering/repairs, hence why I thought to pull off the existing plaster one room at a time, starting from the bottom of the house where we'd expect to see the mjority of rotten beams and repair or replace what timber we need to.

Are you saying that the extent of the damage will be more noticeable from the outside of the property rather than the inside or that most people repair timber from the outside of the property?

From most of the comments it seems wise to get the CO involved from the start, so that's going to be my first call...

House looks great and I'm sure with the right care it will be an amazing home.

Thanks- we're really very excited about it and already have a lot of plans!

 

[Penners]

Are you saying that the extent of the damage will be more noticeable from the outside of the property rather than the inside or that most people repair timber from the outside of the property?

It's almost impossible to speculate about whether the damage will greater on the exterior than the interior. It all depends on the history of the house, how it has been treated and repaired, and so on. But if main wall timber frame repairs are necessary, I think you'll find that it's well nigh impossible to carry them out without access to both sides of the wall. That's why it's so important to ensure that you have a clear picture of what repair work might be necessary before you start spending any money on new interior or exterior walls.

 

[AMc]

There are other posters on here who've replaced sections of timber sole plates etc. My GUESS is that if you are forced to replace a significant section of timber then not having to get it into the house first would be an advantage? I would also imagine that a timber will be in worse condition on the outside where it rains and frosts but I've not lived in a timber frame house let alone renovated one.

FWIW my parents live in a timber framed house made of a row of farmers cottages - the architect responsible poured concrete floors with dpm, pointed and rendered in cement and as far as the surveyor could determine the house has no problems - certainly no damp despite being lower than the road outside by about 4 feet.

A CO may be able to give you some advice but they aren't going to write you a schedule of works and they aren't the same as a Building Control Officer either.

You may want to engage an architect of chartered surveyor if you're planning on really going to town with rewiring, new heating, structural changes etc.

 

[tobydog]

Just be aware that with cement over timber, it's what you can't see that you should be worried about. The sole plate on the inside of ours is timeless and as hard as nails. Once I removed some of the cement below and behind, all I can say is that what was hidden made for a great garden mulch!!!!

 

[MdB]

I think we all have horror stories of wood that has been covered up by cement.

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed. Parts of our timber frame are exposed to the elements, and probably have been for over 400 years, and the timbers, though a bit gnarled, are as hard as rock. Conversely, I've had to repair/replace similar timbers under parts of the leaky roof that I could crumble in my hand. Good ventilation and the ability for any damp to dry out seems to be the key thing. Lime-based mortar is permeable to water and will allow any damp to migrate and evaporate. Cement render is impermeable and can trap moisture, which is not a good thing for a timber frame.

I've mentioned it before but, for Dan's benefit, put a woollen glove on one hand and a rubber glove on the other. The woollen-gloved hand will remain perfectly dry to the touch but, after 10-20 minutes, the rubber-gloved hand will be quite sweaty - simply because the small but constant evaporation of moisture from the skin is now trapped by the impermeable glove.

 

[Zebra]

Dans, I'm in a similar situation. I've stripped off the inside, and have a cement render outside which I am hoping to replace next year and for what it's worth I've decided not to plaster at all inside so that I can get to the wall from both sides when I replace the render outside.
Would echo the thoughts of others on here about not being too gung-ho in the first few weeks. It's easy to think "get rid of that old rubbish" and later think "Damn, maybe shouldn't have done that." But if it's just modern plaster then I wouldn't have any qualms... I'm no expert either, but have learned a hell of a lot in the last year by doing a lot of research. SPAB are very helpful, have you tried them? Good luck with it!

 

[dans]

Thank you so much for everyone offering their advice and experience. It's really helped me choose a direction!

Based on these posts, I'm going to have to calm the pace down slightly, complete the annexe refurbishment, move in and have a think about things. The builders can be getting on with roof repairs and stripping back some of internal walls especially for reconfigurate of the stud walls upstairs. Any plastering and decorating will wait until spring next year when we replace the cement render.

I've now got an Architect appointed, so I can even get on with installing a central heating system and a re-wire, once the architect plans are complete.

I've chosen an Architect that I can work WITH, not one that's going to be making all the decisions. I still want a lot of input on the layout, so hopefully they're just going to be adding that '3rd dimension'...

Will keep everyone posted with it's progress and hopefully some nice outdoor shots soon...

Many thanks again!

Dan

 

[middi]

I have send you a PM, dans.

Middi