Removing concrete render costs & implications

[Rob64]

Hello all, new member and in the process of purchasing a mid c16 cottage in Berkshire.

I wonder if anyone here can help me please?

Having had a level 3 survey carried out by a specialist in period properties, there are a number of repair jobs which have been highlighted as needing immediate attention. Not least the old common issue of concrete rendering and pointing.

I've tried 4 different contractors to get an idea of how much the costs are likely to be bearing in mind appreciating that it's not always possible to know the full extent of repair works until removal of modern materials but none of them seem keen to provide even an indicative ballpark quote.

I'm putting this down to either their workload, the size of the works involved not being entertained or simply not in a position to quote despite my sharing the report from the survey with them.

The cottage is a 2 bedroom end of terrace with 2/3 of the building covered in concrete rendering inc the gable end stack and chimney as well as various concrete pointing around the chimneys as well.

Does anyone on here have any advice/comments or similar experiences they can share and if they know of a contractor in the area who may be interested in quoting for the works? Happy to share the survey report on DM

Rob

 

[Cubist]

Hi Rob and welcome,

There are others here who have relevant knowledge and perhaps even some recent experience; I' sure they'll be along soon. The problem with so many contractors today is that they either do not have experience of using traditional materials like lime mortar and/or the equipment they typically use does not lend itself to working well with such materials. Hopefully, other members will soon come along to offer their advice.

In the meantime, good luck with the new abode.

Cheers,
Cubist

 

[Rob64]

Thank you Cubist

Yes, I've been warned about getting the right contractors and the 4 I've approached, 2 of which were given by the surveyor and 2 I have found myself, all purport to be specialist in period property renovations. The survey report I've provided details the repair works required and the use of lime mortar as a breathable material necessity, I just wish I could get some level of ideas of work and costs in a quote, that seems to be the challenge more than anything else.

Thx again and for the welcome

Cheers

Rob

 

[Cubist]

Hello again Rob,

It may be an idea to have a chat with a couple of the specialist lime suppliers to get some idea of the materials costs and perhaps the labour that may be needed. Many, like TyMawr, offer training courses for those that want to do it themselves and their people may be able to offer some qualified advice based on an estimate of the area needing to be rendered. The base materials are not hugely expensive but your final costs will include; transport, scaffolding hire, removal of the existing render, waste disposal, paint and site clean up.

There are a few members who have done the job themselves and they too will soon be in touch.

Cheers again,
Cubist

 

[88v8]

Hello all, new member and in the process of purchasing a mid c16 cottage in Berkshire.
The cottage is a 2 bedroom end of terrace with 2/3 of the building covered in concrete rendering inc the gable end stack and chimney as well as various concrete pointing around the chimneys as well.
Rob

What did you ask them to do? Just hack it off? Or hack it off and make good, which may be a very different matter.

How well is it adhered? And what's underneath? Brick, stone, timber frame....

And then there's the question of why it's there. Is there old damage underneath, old subsidence cracks, bricked-up windows, penetrating damp, spalled brick or stone, or was it just fashion or someone's preference.
Or perhaps it needed repointing and this was a cheap workaround. Rendered-over chimney stacks usually needed work that was not done.

Assuming there are no other obvious problems and you like the place enough, I would be inclined to put it in your DIY file. When you come to do the job, it will either be easy to remove and then become some sort of repair job, or it will be a pig and leave a damaged surface that needs to be re-rendered at which point it becomes a question of whether to take it all off or just the bottom few feet that might be trapping damp, and then the cost to render in lime.

I fear it's too much of a pig in a poke for anyone to give you a sensible pricing.

 

[Rob64]

What did you ask them to do? Just hack it off? Or hack it off and make good, which may be a very different matter.

How well is it adhered? And what's underneath? Brick, stone, timber frame....

And then there's the question of why it's there. Is there old damage underneath, old subsidence cracks, bricked-up windows, penetrating damp, spalled brick or stone, or was it just fashion or someone's preference.
Or perhaps it needed repointing and this was a cheap workaround. Rendered-over chimney stacks usually needed work that was not done.

Assuming there are no other obvious problems and you like the place enough, I would be inclined to put it in your DIY file. When you come to do the job, it will either be easy to remove and then become some sort of repair job, or it will be a pig and leave a damaged surface that needs to be re-rendered at which point it becomes a question of whether to take it all off or just the bottom few feet that might be trapping damp, and then the cost to render in lime.

I fear it's too much of a pig in a poke for anyone to give you a sensible pricing.

Thank you 88v8 - this is very helpful.

Having lived in either brand new or near new homes all my life, this has been somewhat of an education for me so I appreciate your comments.

The quote request was purely based on a summary of works identified by the surveyor which I shared with the contractors, I didn't provide anything specific in requirements hoping they would be able to give me some kind of ball park figure. I'm not sure of the history of the concrete render and why it's there and neither do the current owners. My guess is that it was done as a fashionable preference as the next door attached property is also done in the same way so I am not overly concerned there was an issue for it to be done as it was obviously done at the same time.

Underneath is brick and timber frame, the rear of the property is exposed timber and brick and still in reasonably good condition.

I can see now why quoting hasn't been straight forward and hence the contractors have gone silent, thank you again for your advice and information, this has been very useful

Rob

 

[Mac]

Hello all, new member and in the process of purchasing a mid c16 cottage in Berkshire.

I wonder if anyone here can help me please?

Having had a level 3 survey carried out by a specialist in period properties, there are a number of repair jobs which have been highlighted as needing immediate attention. Not least the old common issue of concrete rendering and pointing.

I've tried 4 different contractors to get an idea of how much the costs are likely to be bearing in mind appreciating that it's not always possible to know the full extent of repair works until removal of modern materials but none of them seem keen to provide even an indicative ballpark quote.

I'm putting this down to either their workload, the size of the works involved not being entertained or simply not in a position to quote despite my sharing the report from the survey with them.

The cottage is a 2 bedroom end of terrace with 2/3 of the building covered in concrete rendering inc the gable end stack and chimney as well as various concrete pointing around the chimneys as well.

Does anyone on here have any advice/comments or similar experiences they can share and if they know of a contractor in the area who may be interested in quoting for the works? Happy to share the survey report on DM

Rob

Hi Rob this is my first post as a newbie on here & I was just about to ask a question myself when I saw your post.

I'm taking most of the internal concrete render off our 18c cob cottage in Cornwall. Its a pig of a job especially with cob but DIY dooable.

I've found if you have the time & energy to do this yourself it'll save money but I'm a full time landscaper so both time & energy are limited!

I have used a great little company down here for some 3 coat lime rendering around our fireplace and will probably get them back for some more lime rendering.

Unfortunately our cottage externally cased in hard rough cast concrete. I've had a cob specialist look at it and he basically said it's not worth removing. The damp inside is not too bad and the risk of pulling the concrete off the outside may damage the underlying fabric.

Old houses have damp, old houses have cracks & imperfections with most becoming evident through the changing of the seasons. Humidity, shrinkage & movements.

You could take a look at Cornwall Limes website, lots of advice and knowledge on there

Hope that helps.
Ben

 

[88v8]

Underneath is brick and timber frame, the rear of the property is exposed timber and brick and still in reasonably good condition.

Errm, what, timber frame like ours? see thumbnail...

I'm afraid that rendering was a classic bodge to cover rotting timbers. Behind the render may be a moneypit.

Don't wish to be a doomsayer especially as I haven't seen the house but I would very much hesitate to buy it.

Ivor

Edit to say you can add pics via Photobucket

Further edit... the above is perhaps not very helpful:
From the layout of the visible framing and adjacent properties, you can probably deduce where the timber frame lies beneath the render.
Examine the render most carefully in these areas - are there cracks, perhaps filled in? The cracks need only be thin to admit water, which once admitted cannot escape.

Now, with a wooden mallet, lightly tap the render where the frame lies beneath. Does it sound hollow?

If the answer to either of these investigations is in the affirmative, the frame is likely rotten.

At worst, its repair could involve taking out large sections of the brickwork to repair/replace the timber. The house will be uninhabitable meanwhile, cost might reach high five figures.

The best thing you might find is that the timber was entirely removed pre-rendering and the voids bricked up and there is nothing left to rot, in which case you could just renew or patch the render as you wish.
That is unlikely.

As regards removing the render, probably the bricks in a timber frame are soft reds. The render when removed will pick off the face, and if you wish not to re-render they will need to be turned round in the wall to show a fair face, which is another faff.

Hacking off the render is a DIY job as I previously mentioned, the subsequent repairs less so.

A final aspect arises if it is listed. Repairs and re-rendering would not constitute an alteration, but removing the render would. So the Conservation Office would get involved and you would need permission. A point to consider.

There is a half-timber house a few miles from us that was rendered over many years ago. Abandoned and unsold it is falling apart.
Examine it carefully. But be prepared to walk away.

 

[Rob64]

Errm, what, timber frame like ours? see thumbnail...

I'm afraid that rendering was a classic bodge to cover rotting timbers. Behind the render may be a moneypit.

Don't wish to be a doomsayer especially as I haven't seen the house but I would very much hesitate to buy it.

Ivor

Edit to say you can add pics via Photobucket

Further edit... the above is perhaps not very helpful:
From the layout of the visible framing and adjacent properties, you can probably deduce where the timber frame lies beneath the render.
Examine the render most carefully in these areas - are there cracks, perhaps filled in? The cracks need only be thin to admit water, which once admitted cannot escape.

Now, with a wooden mallet, lightly tap the render where the frame lies beneath. Does it sound hollow?

If the answer to either of these investigations is in the affirmative, the frame is likely rotten.

At worst, its repair could involve taking out large sections of the brickwork to repair/replace the timber. The house will be uninhabitable meanwhile, cost might reach high five figures.

The best thing you might find is that the timber was entirely removed pre-rendering and the voids bricked up and there is nothing left to rot, in which case you could just renew or patch the render as you wish.
That is unlikely.

As regards removing the render, probably the bricks in a timber frame are soft reds. The render when removed will pick off the face, and if you wish not to re-render they will need to be turned round in the wall to show a fair face, which is another faff.

Hacking off the render is a DIY job as I previously mentioned, the subsequent repairs less so.

A final aspect arises if it is listed. Repairs and re-rendering would not constitute an alteration, but removing the render would. So the Conservation Office would get involved and you would need permission. A point to consider.

There is a half-timber house a few miles from us that was rendered over many years ago. Abandoned and unsold it is falling apart.
Examine it carefully. But be prepared to walk away.

Yes, timber framed similar to your thumbnail pic

Attached are some pics which show the house in question at the end of the terrace. Next door is also rendered in the same way, next to that the timbers are exposed but have a smooth render where as our one is pebble dash. I'll take a closer look at the render next week and see if there are any cracks or fill ins. The surveyor from Heritage House did say that it is likely that the timber and brick would unlikely be in a good enough condition to remain exposed and would require a lime mortar render to be applied once concrete is removed

Again, thank you for taking the time to provide additional information, I very much appreciate your input Ivor

Rob

 

[Rob64]

Hi Rob this is my first post as a newbie on here & I was just about to ask a question myself when I saw your post.

I'm taking most of the internal concrete render off our 18c cob cottage in Cornwall. Its a pig of a job especially with cob but DIY dooable.

I've found if you have the time & energy to do this yourself it'll save money but I'm a full time landscaper so both time & energy are limited!

I have used a great little company down here for some 3 coat lime rendering around our fireplace and will probably get them back for some more lime rendering.

Unfortunately our cottage externally cased in hard rough cast concrete. I've had a cob specialist look at it and he basically said it's not worth removing. The damp inside is not too bad and the risk of pulling the concrete off the outside may damage the underlying fabric.

Old houses have damp, old houses have cracks & imperfections with most becoming evident through the changing of the seasons. Humidity, shrinkage & movements.

You could take a look at Cornwall Limes website, lots of advice and knowledge on there

Hope that helps.
Ben

Many thanks Ben for your input and experiences. If we proceed and purchase the property then we would likely get a restoration expert to do the works. I would be worried about making a bodge of it.

Thanks again for your useful insights

Rob

 

[00rebsta]

Hello all, new member and in the process of purchasing a mid c16 cottage in Berkshire.

I wonder if anyone here can help me please?

Having had a level 3 survey carried out by a specialist in period properties, there are a number of repair jobs which have been highlighted as needing immediate attention. Not least the old common issue of concrete rendering and pointing.

I've tried 4 different contractors to get an idea of how much the costs are likely to be bearing in mind appreciating that it's not always possible to know the full extent of repair works until removal of modern materials but none of them seem keen to provide even an indicative ballpark quote.

I'm putting this down to either their workload, the size of the works involved not being entertained or simply not in a position to quote despite my sharing the report from the survey with them.

The cottage is a 2 bedroom end of terrace with 2/3 of the building covered in concrete rendering inc the gable end stack and chimney as well as various concrete pointing around the chimneys as well.

Does anyone on here have any advice/comments or similar experiences they can share and if they know of a contractor in the area who may be interested in quoting for the works? Happy to share the survey report on DM

Rob

Hi there, Just wanted to say welcome to the forum and that I also have this same problem at the moment with getting contractors to quote. My problem is I need repair work undertaking which is hidden by old render. I have never known it be so tricky to get a quote for something. I’m finding they will quote for clearer more obvious jobs but not what lurks under my render. I only need my bay window lintel checking for query replacement or repair and then the floor joists repairing/ and brickwork stitched. I can’t be of much help but just wanted to say you’re not the only one with this problem and let us know how you get on!
I think if it’s a really old house it’s hard to find tradesmen with the older skills. Also whether it’s because of cost or they don’t want to quote because they can’t see what needs to be done until the renders off? It’s very stressful.

 

[Kearn]

I’d be following up with your surveyor for more detailed discussions of what issues are evident already… they should be able to give an educated view of where issues may be visible, what’s hollow, cracking, moisture is present etc etc inside and out - the report is one thing, but the conversation is the value as this is honest, and what’s in B&W is subject to risk aversion and liability. You’ll get far more insight and fact/opinion by discussing if you haven’t. were you present for the survey?

It could all be fine, and minimal intervention required. However, biggest worst case scenario - moisture has been trapped behind the render for decades and the structural frame has turned to mush. Total rebuild, likely into 6 figures and doing the work given the road facing and no outside space for work/scaffold/skip… is going to be more challenging than usual.

The reason nobody will quote, or even estimate, is it’s effectively impossible. What are you asking them to price?

Nobody will know the state of what lies beneath until works start, by which point you’re vested and there’s no going back. They could give you a figure, but it will be the worst, upper end feasible to cover themselves. Add to that, it’s not that simple - getting the render off is one thing, but finding a capable timber framer who is able, and willing to undertake conservation works. And has availability in the next 18 months is near impossible. Plus getting the infill panels repaired, is another specialist trade. So you’ll need at least 3 trades to quote, or a specialist who oversees historic conservation projects with the right connections to get all the parts aligned, which comes at a greater cost again.

If you’re unsure of what lies beneath and will be involved , which is an assumption based on asking here, then it’s probably not the property for you. Unless you have very deep pockets and a willingness to potentially live elsewhere whilst massively invasive works go on over the coming years …

The easiest approach, would be to expose the structure so that the real issues can be seen and therefore better estimated, which will still be guessing to an extent. Then there’s the obvious issue that often the modern materials are serving a more structural role than intended, so removal needs to be cautious. And finally, you don’t own the house so don’t have the luxury to deconstruct it, therefore estimates for future works need to be factored into purchase price - which comes back to your surveyor again as a first point of call.

I’m assuming it’s listed? Which adds extra challenge and delay. And you also share at least one elevation of the building with a neighbour, which means you don’t have 100% access or control about your building. I’d also hazard a guess that the external pavement against the building is too high, which you cannot resolve and will be causing issues.

Good luck with it, but I wouldn’t feel like I had enough info to move forward at this stage…

 

[Rob64]

Hi there, Just wanted to say welcome to the forum and that I also have this same problem at the moment with getting contractors to quote. My problem is I need repair work undertaking which is hidden by old render. I have never known it be so tricky to get a quote for something. I’m finding they will quote for clearer more obvious jobs but not what lurks under my render. I only need my bay window lintel checking for query replacement or repair and then the floor joists repairing/ and brickwork stitched. I can’t be of much help but just wanted to say you’re not the only one with this problem and let us know how you get on!
I think if it’s a really old house it’s hard to find tradesmen with the older skills. Also whether it’s because of cost or they don’t want to quote because they can’t see what needs to be done until the renders off? It’s very stressful.

Seems like it's a common problem across the board then. I have to say I'm starting to think is it worth all the stress buying a period home? On top of that with it being grade 2 listed and in a conservation area!

Good luck with your quotes and I hope you get it sorted, I'll post on progress here if anything changes

Cheers

Rob

 

[Rob64]

I’d be following up with your surveyor for more detailed discussions of what issues are evident already… they should be able to give an educated view of where issues may be visible, what’s hollow, cracking, moisture is present etc etc inside and out - the report is one thing, but the conversation is the value as this is honest, and what’s in B&W is subject to risk aversion and liability. You’ll get far more insight and fact/opinion by discussing if you haven’t. were you present for the survey?

It could all be fine, and minimal intervention required. However, biggest worst case scenario - moisture has been trapped behind the render for decades and the structural frame has turned to mush. Total rebuild, likely into 6 figures and doing the work given the road facing and no outside space for work/scaffold/skip… is going to be more challenging than usual.

The reason nobody will quote, or even estimate, is it’s effectively impossible. What are you asking them to price?

Nobody will know the state of what lies beneath until works start, by which point you’re vested and there’s no going back. They could give you a figure, but it will be the worst, upper end feasible to cover themselves. Add to that, it’s not that simple - getting the render off is one thing, but finding a capable timber framer who is able, and willing to undertake conservation works. And has availability in the next 18 months is near impossible. Plus getting the infill panels repaired, is another specialist trade. So you’ll need at least 3 trades to quote, or a specialist who oversees historic conservation projects with the right connections to get all the parts aligned, which comes at a greater cost again.

If you’re unsure of what lies beneath and will be involved , which is an assumption based on asking here, then it’s probably not the property for you. Unless you have very deep pockets and a willingness to potentially live elsewhere whilst massively invasive works go on over the coming years …

The easiest approach, would be to expose the structure so that the real issues can be seen and therefore better estimated, which will still be guessing to an extent. Then there’s the obvious issue that often the modern materials are serving a more structural role than intended, so removal needs to be cautious. And finally, you don’t own the house so don’t have the luxury to deconstruct it, therefore estimates for future works need to be factored into purchase price - which comes back to your surveyor again as a first point of call.

I’m assuming it’s listed? Which adds extra challenge and delay. And you also share at least one elevation of the building with a neighbour, which means you don’t have 100% access or control about your building. I’d also hazard a guess that the external pavement against the building is too high, which you cannot resolve and will be causing issues.

Good luck with it, but I wouldn’t feel like I had enough info to move forward at this stage…

Thank you for the info. No I wasn't able to be present for the survey. I had a follow up call with the surveyor and he basically just went through the report in more detail and a rough cost estimate but couldn't be sure, didn't say 'don't touch with a bargepole' but also that there was need for repair jobs which he did highlight in the summary and then in further detail. I have to be honest that they have been pretty poor in willingness for dialogue after the event, emails and phone calls have been hard to come by or short responses with a complete lack of support in finding the right people to quote, hence this note initially on this forum. I even wrote to the head of Heritage House and got no response. I wouldn't recommend them.

I'm kind of stuck on what to do, whether to go for it and take a chance or leave it. I can't see what the extent of the works is unless I remove the render and I can't do that until I own it. The report did highlight the the interior is in very good order, ie the structure and that the roof supports are of very high quality and again in good order.

The house is grade 2 listed and lies within a conservation area so there will be challenges there too.

Thx again for your comments, much appreciated

 

[Mrs McG]

My cottage is also grade 2 listed and in a conservation area, the thumbnail shows the front which has a concrete render. I had similar conversations with my surveyor last summer and of course nobody knows what’s behind it, he said that it was in good order and internally there were no signs of damp so I decided to live with it but at the end of the day you must do what you feel comfortable with.

 

[88v8]

Seems like it's a common problem across the board then. I have to say I'm starting to think is it worth all the stress buying a period home? On top of that with it being grade 2 listed and in a conservation area!

If one loves old buildings, it can be very worthwhile.
But perhaps not this one.
Bang on the street, one-way street, double yellows, not in its own grounds, listed. That will always hold back the value.
And any remedial work you do will add not one penny to its market value.

It's a bit like buying a classic car. If one has the skills and the time - and in the case of a house if one is prepared to live perhaps for years in a quasi-building site - then it can be OK to buy a cheapo with issues.
But if one has to pay others to bring it up to scratch, the cost of purchase + necessary works can far exceed the ultimate value.
Buy the best, is the general advice in the classic car world, and I think could equally be said of period homes.

Ivor