Removal of structural timber to create a doorway

[Mellow]

Please bear with me - this may be an unusual question.

We are considering the purchase of a house which is Grade 2 Listed, and has had several extensions built over the years. One of these is two storey, with the upper storey being separated from the rest of the house by a short wall (about 3 feet in height). I presume that the wall was left in place because it previously formed the outside wall of the house and contains some structural, probably horizontal, timber frame component which was deemed too tricky or expensive to remove at the time.

I am trying to find out if there is any reasonably straightforward way of overcoming this obstruction so that the wall can be fully or partially removed to create a larger room. The building's appearance would remain unchanged from outside.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[xanthe]

Have you contacted your local Conservation Officer?

As soon as we had had the survey done on the property we are buying, I arranged to go round with the local CO. That way, I could broach the subject of certain changes (including removing internal walls - C20th not original C16th) and gauge the reaction.

It was incredibly useful - both as far as whether we will get agreement (almost certainly yes), to getting lots of information on the history of the house and particular features, and especially finding out that he's a very nice chap and prepared to be reasonable.

Most importantly, he spotted a few things - like a dormer window - that didn't have Listed Building Consent and said that he wouldn't press for action to be taken. Given that the current owner of the property not the original sinner is the person held responsible it's worth having that checked in advance as the penalties can be draconian.

Regarding your wall, the CO could tell you if he/she will allow it, maybe give you some ideas of how to go about removing/replacing and might even be able to suggest some examples of work elsewhere you could see of the same sort and perhaps give you names of builders that they wouldn't 'not' recommend if you don't have someone lined up.

Don't know if any of that is helpful.

 

[Mellow]

Thanks - those are some very useful thoughts which we will be acting upon on in the next few weeks.

 

[LadyArowana]

If the wall was part of the original fabric of the building then it may have had to be left in place as a condition of the listed building consent for the extension, to avoid making a change to the building that was irreversible in the future. You, or your solicitor ( as part of the pre purchase searches ) should hopefully be able to find records of the consent and any mention of the wall in question. If the extension was done a long time ago, before the listing, there may not be records. This I believe would also mean that the extension would be described in the listing. Be aware that the CO may not look kindly on a request to remove original fabric simply to accommodate a modern style of living.

However, if there is no conservation restriction on removing this element, then you would need to get advice from a structural engineer on the physical restrictions on doing so and whether the wall could be replaced by extra wood or steel in some way.

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Entirely agree with the advice to contact your CO.
The Listed Buildings planning process is unique in that there is no appeal from the decision of the CO, and they can be somewhat idiosyncratic.

As Lady A has said, their responsibility is to the building, not to ameliorating the inconvenience of the occupants. Removal of the wall may indeed have been refused when the extension was built.

If this alteration would be fundamental to you, a diplomatic contact with the CO should be a priority.
However, be aware that an 'OK in principle' does not mean you actually will get consent. We went to see our CO before purchasing and got an in-principle for a linking porch, but when we applied we were told that no extension of any sort would be countenanced.

Decide therefore, whether, if push comes to shove, you would be happy to live in the house as it stands.

Ivor

 

[Zebra]

I'd think it probably unadvisable. If not for structural reasons, then out of respect for the house's original timber frame structure. When I first bought my house (17th century timber frame) I'd had all sorts of ideas about cutting into the timber frame to extend (mine isn't listed), and am really extremely glad I gave up all such ideas. Now I find it an apalling idea, because the integrity of the original structure is what makes the house what it is. Planning wouldn't let me extend anyway.

 

[Mellow]

Thank you all very much for your advice. I have left a message for the CO so hope to be able to have that conversation shortly.

 

[Penners]

It's difficult to envisage the structure and layout of the wall that you've described, but if it appears to be part of the original structure of the building, I think you may have some trouble in getting the CO to allow you to remove all or part of it. However, this will of course depend on the CO's view of the age and originality of the structure.

If you research the council's records of previous LBC applications relating to the house, you may be able to shed some light on what Listed Building Consents have or have not been granted for past alterations. These may help you to discover whether the wall was left intact as a condition of a consent for an alteration.

 

[Me!]

It sounds like the same arrangement we had in the house I grew up in.
It was a thatched cottage where an extension had been built (many years before the house was listed) on an end that previously had a half-hipped roof. This left a major horizontal beam blocking the entrance to my bedroom in the extension, so I had to go up three steps over the beam and down another three steps to get in. I just grew up thinking this was perfectly normal

 

[MatthewC]

However, be aware that an 'OK in principle' does not mean you actually will get consent. We went to see our CO before purchasing and got an in-principle for a linking porch, but when we applied we were told that no extension of any sort would be countenanced.

Decide therefore, whether, if push comes to shove, you would be happy to live in the house as it stands.

That's good advice - we had the same sort of problem with our CO whose advice was not worth the effort of a meeting and cost me some architects fees etc - so be prepared for the disappointment of a refusal when you do apply, regardless of what they say in advance.

 

[Mellow]

Thanks all. I've now been in touch with the CO and a visit is in the offing.