Refinishing horribly abused pine cupboards - Toby, help!

[Feltwell]

OK, I admit to trying to entice Mr Newell to reply to this one, but all other wisdom will be gratefully received.....

Feltwell Towers has some original Victorian built in cupboards in the kitchen, which badly need attention. They have been stripped in the past, and (despite the lack of authenticity) I do prefer them as stripped rather than painted.

They have been stripped very badly - someone has even had a go at them at one place with a blowtorch, the scorching and loss of timber being obviously irreversible. The main problem is they have clearly been chemically stripped, which has left a blotchy uneven appearance that is slightly pink in places in certain lights. They're also clearly dirty - have a go at the edges of the doors with some beeswax and the dirt starts to lift off. I think they've been waxed in the past, a long time ago.

Difficult to see in pictures, but see below for an attempt. Clearly they are never going to be pristine, which is fine (I don't want them to be) but they can look better than they do currently I'm sure. My initial thought was a careful, light sand down by hand followed by a coloured Briwax to try to even up the colour - it's OK if it darkens it a bit - opinions?

 

[Toby Newell]

NP. I am currently lurking awaiting my prosperous 2016 to start, so you are in luck.

There is this: http://newellwoodworks.co.uk/guide%20to%20wood%20stripping.html

and even this: http://newellwoodworks.co.uk/wordpress/?p=41

which may be helpful.

TBH they don't look that bad really do they? In the history of abuse I would say they are inelegantly washed and clothed. The blowtorch will have to be put down to historic patination I am afraid...

It is not clear what you are asking. The above links should supply you with ample information of how to strip them properly and this one help on how to finish them: http://newellwoodworks.co.uk/guide%20to%20wood%20finishing.html

Personally I wouldn't touch Briwax as it is horrible stuff, even the Toluene free stuff contains toluene derived solvents, it dries too quickly has little beeswax and little or no canauba and is the epitomy of everything that is modern and wrong, it is used by the mass produced pine furniture industry, as I have said before, please buy some proper beeswax and not just the most industrialised horrible crap which is impossible to use (Briwax dries almost instantly as it is meant to be buffed in a factory by machine, Briwax even make a heated pressure application system for that authentic 'machine finished' look.)

Support the good guys and go buy some Mylands wax, Jenkins wax (Harrells) both made in London, the Myland recipe partly dates from Gedges 1881 formulation which they incorporated. Briwax is the world leader in crappy, carcinogenic, mass produced factory finishes, if you see a Polisher with a tin of Briwax you know he isn't very serious. Liberon is made by a large French conglomerate but at least they still make decent craft products, their Black Bison wax smells wonderful and is very easy to apply. Wax rant over. Oh and coloured wax, why? If you solvent strip and hot soda wash your pine it should come up a lovely digestive biscuit / ginger nut colour which should look less orangey than the picture IMO correctly stripped Victorian pine looks great. Pine stains very badly and very obviously.

The key to stripping is to let the stripper work its magic and be very generous in its application, Mylands and Jenkins still do solvent stripper, you cannot buy it from DIY stores anymore so anything you can buy on the high street won't work. If you have a stone floor you can simply use boiling hot caustic soda (will darken wood to a less orange digestive colour) or a more gentle boiling happy shopper washing soda (which is less alkaline and results in a less pronounced digestive tone) if damage to surrounding flooring isn't a problem I would employ both, a solvent strip immediately followed by a boiling hot soda strip whilst vigorously scrubbing your quirks with a stiff nylon brush.

When solvent stripping it's really common sense, soften it, keep it wet and use anything that comes to hand to remove the paint and residue from the quirks, Bahco 625 scraper, screwdriver, screwdriver under wire wool (you want to use Trollull no 5 wire wool for pine no 6 may be too course) brass coated wire wool brushes, nylon brushes, my stripping case contains a few dozen different grass, wire, brass, steel and nylon brushes of various sizes and shapes.

Sanding is useless with wax. The clogging would be so great you would have to resort to such coarse grits that you would damage the wood and lose patination. Sanding should only be done AFTER all the wax and paint has been removed via chemical stripping, soda washing, water washing / neutralising (a soda wash counts as a neutralising agent, after dry just wash again with clean warm water and dry off) Even then the only sanding that is required should be a nice rub down with a fresh bit of quality SiC 240 grit (not cheap garnet or tough AloX a nice started finishing paper, they normally look pale blue)

To finish all you need is one coat of shellac and one or two coats of wax. Depending on how well you strip you might not even need the shellac as some wax will remain in the surface, in that case just apply one or two coats of wax direct. As I say, more detailed advice on my website and blog. It doesn't actually look that bad, just needs a good strip. T

PS Can someone please get through to Simon or Mr Tavendale I have tried Rob but to no avail, I offered to update my two articles on here which do not appear to be showing up properly and have old links, also I am able to offer specific advice articles on stripping and waxing beams, stripping wax and waxing and tool advice as they seem to be popular topics on here. I am happy to link to my own website but maybe it would be more elegant and less self aggrandising for me to be able to point people to links here on period property.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I thought they looked quite good too. Cold the pinkinsh hue, be the remnants of red lead primer? When I have stripped old pine in my house with a heat gun, this pinkishness is evident on the wood, and there was definitely red lead underneath. On stuff that I have got chemically stripped, (yes dipped in soda, I realise I am in danger of being ostracised in this company) the red completely comes off. If I could have my way in my house I would dark varnish or woodgrain the pine as I am sure this was the original finish. As always I am not the only (or perhaps not even a) decision maker in my household.

 

[Toby Newell]

I cannot say I have ever noticed red lead that often myself but it is possible that's my memory going, I cannot see any red lead in this picture, just aged wax, the white balance of the picture is probably out too.

One would of expected to see red lead pigment in the quirks along with the white paint residue, I can't seem to see that.

Dipping in caustic soda gives a lovely digestive biscuit colour, it does shrink the wood, destroy all glue joints but it is cheap, there is a use for it if you don't mid a few gaps and the possibility of a re-glue.

The soda I am talking about is a gentler carbonate, not the hydroxide, this will not be so effective on paint and modern varnishes but still works great on shellac and waxes.

It is very hard to say what the original finish would have been, different houses, different times etc. One has to look at the overall context, the first being, stand back and take a look at the piece. To me the grain pattern seems quite even, it looks quite pretty, it is therefore possible that it was meant as show wood. If it looks crappy, it obviously wasn't. More modest houses or rural houses may have been simply painted more often than their more elaborate or urban counterparts where more effort may have been made to grain them, but who cares?! Art is what you like, the wood is pretty and as long as Ivor can reduce the apparent level of orange in the scene waxing it can look good. I really don't like graining, at least at eye level where you can obviously see it, unless it is done superbly, like in the Pilkington (glass) head office behind St James Palace next to the old London library, I was several visits in before I noticed, I prefer natural or just painted, each to their own!

 

[chuckey]

I would scrape them down, I had a cupboard similar to yours complete with its pink blush. The wood went a beautiful honey colour.
Frank

 

[wobs]

Can you post picture of the top and bottom please, as it is similar to what we are getting made (as soon as the joiner turns up). Might be useful to see how the architraves end.

We have four dipped doors. Bit of red residue as mentioned above, and a fair bit of damage where some thug had removed them from where they came from (doors were from salvage yard).

Its an alcove cupboard we're making, and the it looks in proportion with what you have (although we have no draws in ours).

 

[Toby Newell]

I would scrape them down, I had a cupboard similar to yours complete with its pink blush. The wood went a beautiful honey colour.
Frank

A sandvik (Bahco) cabinet scraper would work but would leave score marks even for an experienced professional with years of experience unless a stripper was used, also stripper softens the residue, some white paint of which can be seen, in the quirks and reduces the force required and thus the possibility of the cabinet scraper slipping and scoring across the grain.

A bahco 625 scraper is very good for the quirks if used with two hands but even then if the grain moves towards the edge of the molding the blade edge will follow. Thus if one was to scrape only one would need to sand very well afterwards to remove any gouging marks.

If Frank has had good results with dry scraping only on large flat horizontal surfaces without further sanding then he may be a natural and he needs to teach me how to do it! I am always trying to strip things by scraping and have encouraged my friend and colleague Mr O'Neil to do the same, much to the chagrin of his 70 yr old mentor Mr Bowyer (whom he was an apprentice under and still works with who screams "No!!!" "Not the scraper" I feel bad...

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I too like them as they are--however Toby's comments and experience will probably lead yo to how you want them to look--if you must !!!

 

[Feltwell]

Thank you all, Toby in particular. The pictures flatter them - perhaps because I took them at night with the camera flash - they look more grey & patchy & grubby in real life I'm afraid. I'll post some more pictures for Wobs tomorrow, taken in daylight (if we get any!)

I need to decorate the kitchen so if I'm going to have a go at them with some stripper or soda, the time to do it is before I decorate!

The drawers need attention - the bottoms of the drawer sides have worn out in the past where they run on the frame, also badly worn. So someone crudely nailed some strips of wood on - which means as they wore down the nail heads protruded and did lots more damage! I'm having to remove these, machine the bottom of the drawer sides back to a good level edge with a router, stick new wood on to take them back to their original size, and machine in new grooves for the drawer base to sit in - then replace the runners in the frame. 1 drawer done, the rest are on the mental list of jobs to do (and have been for a while )

 

[MatthewC]

I know you weren't asking for votes, but I stripped and painted some pine doors in my house and they look lovely. T'other half is very happy which is what matters! She wanted eau-de-nil so I used Laura Ashley eggshell finish which came up very well with two coats. To my mind painting brings up the detail better, and having taken the trouble to strip the mouldings, I am now in complete agreement with her.

NB The sanded doors still had the same "grey & patchy" appearance even after a lot of work, so I doubt they would ever have looked really good in natural finish.

 

[Feltwell]

I have considered painting them, but it seems a shame to hide the wood up - I do like old quality pine, historically inaccurate as it may be!

Here's a picture taken in daylight with no flash, gives a better (but still not great) idea of the colour of them.



I'd be much happier if it had a similar appearance to this corner cupboard I've got. It isn't perfect, far from it (the picture flatters it), but the colour is a lot more even and it doesn't look blotchy or grubby!



I really must invest in a decent camera one day!

I'm leaning towards following Toby's guidance on a soda wash to clean it up, then shellac and try some (non-Briwax!) wax. I do wonder if a coloured wax will help even up the colour, but I'll try a plain wax first.

Can you post picture of the top and bottom please, as it is similar to what we are getting made (as soon as the joiner turns up). Might be useful to see how the architraves end.

We have four dipped doors. Bit of red residue as mentioned above, and a fair bit of damage where some thug had removed them from where they came from (doors were from salvage yard).

Its an alcove cupboard we're making, and the it looks in proportion with what you have (although we have no draws in ours).

Here you go Wobs. It is all original - not the finest bit of cabinet making, but in keeping with it's function as a kitchen cupboard. Work obviously still required, such as filling the tapering gap between the (level) top architrave and the sloping ceiling!

 

[wobs]

Thank you for that Feltwell.

I was thinking of using some architrave up each side, but looking that, I don't think I'll be able to.

Will hopefully take some pics when it finally gets made, as I'm not sure whether to paint or keep wood finish.

 

[Feltwell]

I've just started cleaning the cupboards with a strong solution of boiling hot washing soda, and my God the colour of what is coming off :shock: :shock: :shock:

Even as the solution cools down, the muck that it's shifting off is unbelievable!

I'm not brave enough to try caustic soda straight off - typical newbie to something really, I'm too afraid of messing something up that's been there for over 100 years already!

 

[Toby Newell]

I've just started cleaning the cupboards with a strong solution of boiling hot washing soda, and my God the colour of what is coming off :shock: :shock: :shock:

Even as the solution cools down, the muck that it's shifting off is unbelievable!

I'm not brave enough to try caustic soda straight off - typical newbie to something really, I'm too afraid of messing something up that's been there for over 100 years already!

Ivor!

The more pictures you post the more I can see that your cupboard is made of beautifully tight grained virgin timber and may indeed have been show wood, it is very pretty and in pretty good condition! The only bad point is the finish, which is the easiest to remedy. The white patches are a textbook case of too much wax build up that I discussed only days ago. Too much wax.

There is absolutely NO need to ever use caustic soda!

Boiling hot washing soda is perfect for shellac and wax where you are going to re-shellack or re-wax. Everything else requires methylene chloride solvent stripper, caustic soda is only used by the dip and strip merchants, it has it's place, due to cheapness, but not really on wood in the home.

Make sure you change the water regularly. I am sure it looks like stewed tea after a few minutes.

(PS And for all those who want to see why clear finishing may be appropriate, compare the two pictures, see how the corner cupboard has lots of knots? See now the OP cupboard has no knots? See how the grain is so tight? I wouldn't be surprised if those draw fronts had 120 growth rings on them and still no knots! What does this mean!? Well, it means that the pine tree was much larger in girth than the drawer front as no branch roots (knots) can be seen, it means due to the incredibly tightly packed grain that the timber grew slowly in a very cold climate, possibly the baltic region and it means that it was certainly from non farmed, virgin forest from a tree that may have been 150 or 200 years old and 70 or 80 metres high, a beautiful thing in itself. Such quality is very rare and to show it off may be indeed historically appropriate and totally justifiable from a wood lovers perspective. Compare that with a modern pine cabinet and it's 30yr old quick grown farmed timber (Briwaxed no doubt) I am certain this is going to look fantastic when finished)

 

[Toby Newell]

The drawers need attention - the bottoms of the drawer sides have worn out in the past where they run on the frame, also badly worn. So someone crudely nailed some strips of wood on - which means as they wore down the nail heads protruded and did lots more damage! I'm having to remove these, machine the bottom of the drawer sides back to a good level edge with a router, stick new wood on to take them back to their original size, and machine in new grooves for the drawer base to sit in - then replace the runners in the frame. 1 drawer done, the rest are on the mental list of jobs to do (and have been for a while )

That is an universally common mistake!!! The damage it does is frustrating, if only people took the time to glue them properly in the first place, I cannot count the amount of time I have seen this, I think your efforts will be rewarded as your cupboard is made up of super rare, high quality, slow grown timber, all you need to do is reveal it.

 

[chuckey]

My scrapers are home made out of old files ground up with a flat end. I resharpen them constantly in use, so at to leave a little curl, which is brilliant, then you get it breaking off, a few more strokes and you are back to resharpening. Reckon I spend at 25% of the time sharpening. :-(
Frank

 

[Toby Newell]

My scrapers are home made out of old files ground up with a flat end. I resharpen them constantly in use, so at to leave a little curl, which is brilliant, then you get it breaking off, a few more strokes and you are back to resharpening. Reckon I spend at 25% of the time sharpening. :-(
Frank

Try a Bahco or Sandvik cabinet scraper, I suspect they are easier to sharpen, sometimes they can last for days without sharpening. On large flat surfaces you may want to slightly round off a couple of the corners to reduce gouging at the edges.

 

[Feltwell]

There is absolutely NO need to ever use caustic soda!

Boiling hot washing soda is perfect for shellac and wax where you are going to re-shellack or re-wax. Everything else requires methylene chloride solvent stripper, caustic soda is only used by the dip and strip merchants, it has it's place, due to cheapness, but not really on wood in the home.

Noted! The washing soda has done a great job of stripping everything off. I've got some solvent-based Nitromors (old stock) if I had any paint to shift - no need on this, just a few little bits which careful use of a scraper has dealt with.

The door panels are now clean but not pretty - this picture shows the detail pretty well, lots of scratches across the grain, dark and light patches, and patches of that pink bloom.



Good news is, this is a patch just above that I carefully rubbed down with 240 grade abrasive - this seems to take the colour variance problem out, as well as the scratches of course.



Toby, would there be any reasons to not carefully use a random orbit sander on the large flat sections? Or is hand sanding with the grain the only way to go?

Final question (for now!) - what do you think is the best way to get some modern wood to match for colour? I've some skirting to fit, to replace missing sections. By modern standards it's decent quality joinery redwood, but it isn't a patch on the original stuff and has that new wood look.

 

[Toby Newell]

Toby, would there be any reasons to not carefully use a random orbit sander on the large flat sections? Or is hand sanding with the grain the only way to go?

Yes. Because your RO sander would leave tiny pigtails in the soft pine. Yes because RO sanders are round and that would leave a (partially curved) triangle at each corner which would look different and take on wax differentially. Yes because using a square edged R sander would solve that problem but leave more noticeable pigtails.
I have £thousands of RO sanders but don't use them on panels, it's just good quality 240 or 180 grit and a block. You can get velcro blocks at auto body shops which are far superior, remember no one needs to sand more effectively and finely than car finishers! These days most of my abrasives, machines and tools are those used by the car finishing and bodyshop trade they are just higher quality than anything available for carpentry work.

The only time you can use a sander on architectural work is when the flats are not constrained at the sides e.g. door edges, stiles, but not panels. You will just have to be a little more patient. Velcro blocks are almost a must to avoid destroyed finger tips and to get into tight corners.

And btw, as is most of my advice, this is from direct experience! Having stripped square miles of panels and having dozens of sanders, obviously I tried sanding panels, it is almost impossible to even up the little triangles at the edge by hand to match the machine sanded area and remember, your timber is patinated, difference in sanding will show up as colour shade differences. If you don't mind little pigtails then you could go over the whole area with a 1/4 sheet or 1/3 sheet sander but this might preferentially sand the softer wood as your latewood will be much harder now after 100 years. I scrape and sand as much as I can these days as wet stripping is messy and sometimes damaging to your braincells but we have conceded that panels should only be sanded by hand.

Final question (for now!) - what do you think is the best way to get some modern wood to match for colour? I've some skirting to fit, to replace missing sections. By modern standards it's decent quality joinery redwood, but it isn't a patch on the original stuff and has that new wood look.

I think Houston you have a problem. Your cupboard is too good. Look at your penultimate picture, on the left, the molding, note the colour of the resinous late wood rings, its a deep orange/burnt sienna colour, that only happens after several decades, no matter how much you stain the softer earlywood to match (possible) the latewood rings on your new timber will remain a lighter orange/pink. To match the new pine in would be tricky even for me and it's my greatest skill. Unfortunately it is so much better to get reclaimed wood, especially with pine, because of this reason. If you cannot afford or wait to procure reclaimed wood then you will just have to experiment
this may help. Basically with pine you cannot stain the resinous latewood so you will have to first stain the earlywood with a dye, slightly lighter than desired, then apply at least one other stain, a pigmented one which will slightly colour over the top of the latewood rings to even things up. You can apply caustic soda, as a pre stain which will slightly darken the latewood too but remember to neutralise this with white vinegar /acetic acid and wash off thoroughly. I told you it's tricky. The smaller the section and the more in shadow it is the easier it is to hide, so skirting is on the easier end of the colouring scale.

http://newellwoodworks.co.uk/guide%20to%20wood%20finishing.html

I wouldn't however, be too worried about it, when you have finished I don't think anyone will be looking at your skirting.

 

[Toby Newell]

Update? I just finished a 147hr 15 day week and need some light relief.

Any pictures?

I am expecting very good things!