Re-erecting an old barn as a garage

[88v8]

We had planned to build a stone & brick garage at our 'new' house (1620) but there is the chance of acquiring an old barn which is or could become about the right size. The barn is c100 yo, oak frame, clad in feather-edge, apex roof, hipped ends, tiled roof or would have.

It would be around 25' from the house, and because the site slopes, about 6' downhill, so it would be subservient both in massing and location.
Probably it would not meet current Building Regs, not that I give a hoot so long as BC don't have to be involved.
We would certainly need to get LBC.

Has anyone experience of such a project, or any thoughts on how a CO might regard it in principle?

Ivor

 

[Gareth Hughes]

As we all differ on the principles of this sort of thing, I'd suggest the only way to find out how your CO will view this is to ask them.

Assuming the barn is not listed, but the house it's being moved to the grounds of is, you will need planning permission but almost certainly not LBC unless to facilitate the erection of the barn you are also doing works to a structure that is already on the intended site.

Depending on the size of the barn, it's possible - or even probable - that you will need approval under the building regulations as this will be counted as a new building, albeit one incorporating old materials.

 

[Penners]

Gareth, would I be correct in saying that a garage does not need building regs approval if its internal floor area is less than 30 m^2?

 

[MdB]

Gareth, would I be correct in saying that a garage does not need building regs approval if its internal floor area is less than 30 m^2?

I think there is a height rule and distance from boundaries etc rules as well. Might be wrong.

 

[Penners]

I think those points would be covered in the planning application, wouldn't they?

 

[MdB]

I think those points would be covered in the planning application, wouldn't they?

I miss read your post. Just ignore me. <goes out to crawl under a bush...>

 

[88v8]

Good advice to contact the CO, so I did, or at least her deputy. She is happy in principle, especially given that it would mostly be reclaimed materials. Happier than the CO was about a new build, even an olde-looking one, not that she was actively unhappy.
She put me onto a Planning chappie, who took the same view given that the garden is big enough for it not to look overcluttered.

BC don't get involved unless it's over 30m2 internal floor area, I shall make it so. Just the electrical side will need approval.
As you say, doesn't need LBC as there are no changes to the existing building, I had thought anything within the curtilage needed approval...
Needs PP because it's over 13' high.

So, all systems maybe Go. Tomorrow I shall go and look at the jigsaw puzzle - the barn has been dismantled and alas, was not well recorded beforehand - and see whether I want to jump in. I already made tentative enquiries about a chap with a 6-wheeled Scania and a 20-ton Hiab, then I'd need to scrounge some space from my adjacent farmer to store it all.
Must be bonkers, really. I could just buy a wood prefab and get someone to come and put it up, instead I may be buying myself a huge woodworking job.
I built a wooden compost bin last year, that's like a garage, almost, how difficult can it be....

Ivor

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Just one tiny correction - in any other location it would need PP because it's over 13' high, here it needs PP regardless of how tall it is because it's within the curtilage of a listed building.

 

[robgil]

Sorry to butt in guys, anything under 13 feet and 30 sq meters needs no PP or regs? Not even for any drainage?
I want to build a small oak framed, wattle and daub play house for my daughter in the garden. Brick plinth and a wooden shingled roof.
I take it a conservation area will need PP?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Very exciting project! Good luck!

 

[MatthewC]

Sorry to butt in guys, anything under 13 feet and 30 sq meters needs no PP or regs? Not even for any drainage?
I want to build a small oak framed, wattle and daub play house for my daughter in the garden. Brick plinth and a wooden shingled roof.
I take it a conservation area will need PP?

I'm sure Gareth will know exactly, but I think that it depends on whether the council have taken away your permitted development rights as you're in a conservation area. Here they have, so I think that technically I need permission to erect any structure, although I'm not sure if that includes a 5ft wall, which is one of my future projects.

 

[Penners]

Sorry to butt in guys, anything under 13 feet and 30 sq meters needs no PP or regs? Not even for any drainage?
I want to build a small oak framed, wattle and daub play house for my daughter in the garden. Brick plinth and a wooden shingled roof.
I take it a conservation area will need PP?

If it's a temporary structure, such as a garden shed, I don't think it needs consents of any kind at all. So you may want to rethink the brick plinth.

 

[88v8]

Sorry to butt in guys, anything under 13 feet and 30 sq meters needs no PP or regs? Not even for any drainage?
I want to build a small oak framed, wattle and daub play house for my daughter in the garden. Brick plinth and a wooden shingled roof.
I take it a conservation area will need PP?

If it's a temporary structure, such as a garden shed, I don't think it needs consents of any kind at all. So you may want to rethink the brick plinth.

He didn't say the bricks would be mortared

Ivor

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Here's the relevant bit of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995. As far as work within the curtilage of a house is concerned, this is what you don't need planning permission for unless PD rights have been removed by means of an article 4 direction.
IIRC, Robgil's cottage is on a corner so the interpretation of what constitutes a site for a wendy house that would be closer to the highway than permitted might be open to debate.

Class E

Permitted development

E. The provision within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse of any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure.
Development not permitted

E.1 Development is not permitted by Class E if—
(a)it relates to a dwelling or a satellite antenna;.
(b)any part of the building or enclosure to be constructed or provided would be nearer to any highway which bounds the curtilage than—.
(i)the part of the original dwellinghouse nearest to that highway, or.
(ii)any point 20 metres from that highway,.
whichever is nearer to the highway;
(c)where the building to be constructed or provided would have a cubic content greater than 10 cubic metres, any part of it would be within 5 metres of any part of the dwellinghouse;.
(d)the height of that building or enclosure would exceed—.
(i)4 metres, in the case of a building with a ridged roof; or.
(ii)3 metres, in any other case;.
(e)the total area of ground covered by buildings or enclosures within the curtilage (other than the original dwellinghouse) would exceed 50% of the total area of the curtilage (excluding the ground area of the original dwellinghouse); or.
(f)in the case of any article 1(5) land or land within the curtilage of a listed building, it would consist of the provision, alteration or improvement of a building with a cubic content greater than 10 cubic metres..

Article 1(5) land is Land within—
(a)a National Park;.
(b)an area of outstanding natural beauty;.
(c)an area designated as a conservation area under section 69 of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990(1)(designation of conservation areas);.
(d)an area specified by the Secretary of State and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the purposes of section 41(3) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981(2) (enhancement and protection of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside);.
(e)the Broads.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Here's the relevant bit of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995.

...
etc

Once that nice Mr Pickles gets his way, you'll be able to do pretty much what you want. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Here's the relevant bit of Schedule 2 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995.

...
etc

Once that nice Mr Pickles gets his way, you'll be able to do pretty much what you want. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Oh good, I'll pop a nice coal-fired power station in your view (like the two I could see from my bedroom window when growing up, along with the three colliery pitheads and their associated slag heaps - I really do rather regret them having been landscaped away as they gave a bit of point and meaning and "local distinctiveness" to our otherwise dull South Lancashire surroundings), instead of that windfarm the neighbours were so touchy about. And perhaps a nuclear waste dump.
Wiggs - I know it's not you, it's that nice Mr Pickles... :twisted:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Yes - whilst I love the fat gherkin for his plain-speaking no-nonsense approach, I think his understandable apathy towards regulation and red-tape is a little overzealous in this case... :roll:

 

[Penners]

Yes - whilst I love the fat gherkin for his plain-speaking no-nonsense approach, I think his understandable apathy towards regulation and red-tape is a little overzealous in this case...

Overzealous apathy is an interesting concept.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Yes - whilst I love the fat gherkin for his plain-speaking no-nonsense approach, I think his understandable apathy towards regulation and red-tape is a little overzealous in this case...

Overzealous apathy is an interesting concept.

oops - there should of course be an extra "nti" in that sentence!

 

[88v8]

Well, I went to see the 'barn' today.

Apparently, they spent two days 'carefully' taking it down.... broken tenons aplenty, some timbers sawn through near the ends, and all thrown in a heap, or two heaps, or three in fact as some had already been carted away for burning. OK to the modern eye they look pretty manky, and have been breakfast lunch dinner and bachelor pad to familes of woodworm, but to me they still have beauty and function, so I retrieved them from the burning pile while I was there.
Some people have a strange notion of 'carefully'.

And, (one shouldn't begin a sentence with 'and' but I often do), those two days didn't include 5 minutes with a camera recording what went where, doh.
And, the seller couldn't really be sure that none of the timbers had been thrown away.
And, the cladding had either been burned or used elsewhere.
And, one of the doors and all of the windows had vanished.
So, to describe it as a 'barn' was pretty rich, really.
And, some of the timbers are jolly heavy and will need a crane, a bonkers task for one person to re-erect, which is how it will/would be.
And, it's been out in the rain since June and it's amazing how much water oak will absorb when it's been well digested by generations of worm.

Despite all of which I might still buy it. The saving grace is that it's longer than I need so there should be some wood spare.
Need to check the transport cost first, and see the farmer who would need to store it for me.
Onwards.

Ivor