Rats in the loft - Loft access

[Jellyfire]

We have a thatched roof, and so expect a few visitors in there, but there are what I assume must be rats and they are driving us up the wall. Every night they start up running around and make an unbelievable amount of noise. They are keeping everybody in the house awake on occasion, including our 2 year old and, and with a new baby due in Feb could really do with some sleep while we can!

There was a thread on here a while back about the same thing, and I tried various poisons which cleared the problem for a while, (the most successful being 'Big Cheese' blocks.) But A big part of our particular problem is we don't have barley any access to the loft, there is a small hatch where the extension meets the old building, but I presume this was put in as a finishing touch as its not big enough to get into, (Mrs. JF isn't keen on me popping the 2 year old in there). so I can only put poison/traps in one place, and they seem to have stopped taking whatever I put there now. There is lots of wiring up there which also worries me, in case they decide to make a meal out of that!

Ive held my phone camera into the hatch and taken pics to try and assess what its like up there. There are what appear to be lots of rat droppings, lots of insulation which hasnt been laid (and I think is probably unnecessary anyway as the thatch keeps upstairs very warm). The chimney stack is central in the house, and from the photo it looks like its not possible to get past it to the other side.

So...

A.) Do I fit new loft hatches into the ceiling at each side of the chimney. The ceilings are lathe/wattle and daub as far as I can tell. Would there be any way to do this without taking down the whole section of ceiling?

B.) Try something else to get rid of the rats. If so what??

C.) Any other suggestions?

 

[Zebra]

Sympathies, it would drive me mad too. How do you think that they're getting in and out of the house? Presumably they go out to find food. My brother had rats in his house, down in the cavity where the house had been extended. He blocked off all access and then poisoned them, but it took a while, stank a bit when they died, and some cables did get munched.
Your loft hatch doesn't look unfeasibly small to get into. I'd get in there OK, although not willingly, if it's full of rat droppings...
Don't have any experience with rodents myself, so sorry I can't be of more help, but I recall that there was a very long thread on here recently called "Mice" which strayed off-topic quite impressively, but did cover various aspects of rodent poisoning. Here it is: http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12617

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks Zebra, I did read that thread at the time, had forgotten quite how far it drifted though! I've tried a few poisons and rat traps, but part of the problem is I cant place them in the right spots.

I cant see anywhere obvious they are getting in from the outside, there are cavities in lots of our exterior walls so not sure if they are getting up inside the actual walls.

How would you feel about getting in the loft hatch with an air rifle? I'd make sure you had wifi access and would pass tea and biscuits through throughout the night?

 

[Owain]

Switch off the electricity in case there are any exposed live bits.

Introduce a terrier through the hatch.

If you desperately want to cut new loft hatches then I'd suggest considering going in through a gable end wall if you have one without a chimbly.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Ohh, awful. They are so clever, that's the problem. Why would they take poison if they have a nice larder of good food? You need to get in that loft, by making loft hatches if necessary, find the larders and remove if you can spot them, lay down masses of packets of Neosorexa Gold and wait. You'd never be able to eliminate by shooting, have you looked at breeding rates? Plus they're so shy, you see one or two but generally there'll be a much larger colony than that - easily 20, 30. I can't tell you how many hours Chris has spent shooting rats, it's sport, but not pest control.

I battle them constantly. It takes about a month to kill them by removing all chicken feed and pushing the bags of poison into the holes, then covering the holes with a boulder and waiting. They use up their larders, look for good fresh food, and as a last resort, take the bait, once the new strange sight of it has worn off ( most rats have neophobia).

If it's any consolation they'll go of their own accord when the weather warms up. But I don't think you should live alongside them until then, the list of diseases they carry is pretty scary. It might be time to call in the professionals!

 

[LadyArowana]

I ( thankfully ) have no experience of rodent disposal, but I would sound a word of caution if you are dealing with a space that has been infested. They can transmit nasty diseases and it would be wise to be aware and take some precautions. I will try and find a link.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg84.pdf

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks all,

Owain, I have thought of introducing a cat or dog up there, but would worry about them getting poisoned as there is quite a bit up there scattered around.

Joce, (don't worry was only joking about send zebra up with a gun), all good advice but all a bit dependent on getting up there, which I suppose is the only solution really but the expensive and awkward one I was hoping to avoid. We called in a professional last year, but he said he couldn't poison due to thatch often homing protected species such as dormice, and he couldn't be sure it was just rats.

Lady A, thanks frightening but good to know! Knew rats carried weils etc, but hasn't really thought about their waste being up there.

So if its a case of putting loft hatches in then, anybody know what this would involve given the ceiling construction?
Owain we have gable ends, not sure what you mean though, do you mean come in through the actual exterior wall, in which case that would be a non-starter due to windows, listing, and lack of access as there are lean-to roofs in front of both.

 

[angrybird]

Thanks all,

Owain, I have thought of introducing a cat or dog up there, but would worry about them getting poisoned as there is quite a bit up there scattered around.

Joce, (don't worry was only joking about send zebra up with a gun), all good advice but all a bit dependent on getting up there, which I suppose is the only solution really but the expensive and awkward one I was hoping to avoid. We called in a professional last year, but he said he couldn't poison due to thatch often homing protected species such as dormice, and he couldn't be sure it was just rats.

Lady A, thanks frightening but good to know! Knew rats carried weils etc, but hasn't really thought about their waste being up there.

So if its a case of putting loft hatches in then, anybody know what this would involve given the ceiling construction?
Owain we have gable ends, not sure what you mean though, do you mean come in through the actual exterior wall, in which case that would be a non-starter due to windows, listing, and lack of access as there are lean-to roofs in front of both.

jellyfire a loft access would be possible as yesterday Mr Angry fitted one in our master bedroom, much to my annoyance ( i didnt want to spoil the nice roof! ok I know ... its a woman thing ! ) our ceiling is lath and plaster and there is no access to the loft space from the other side due to the central chimney breast and the rest being bricked up. The reason for the loft hatch was the PO was not the best electrician :? (wires joined with sticky tape!) and the only way we would be able to have a new light fitting and renew electrics was via the loft and the second reason was there was no insulation and with us being 1000 ft above sea level and on the side of a mountain we needed to make sure the loft was well insulated.
Mr Angry firstly found which ways the ceiling joists where running and then made a cut with a recipricator saw and cut along the inside of the joists and then made sure there is going to be enough headroom , taking into account perlins etc.
Loft hatches are usually 600x600.This normally leaves a joist in the middle,before you cut out the central timber in your loft hatch you can support this by a couple of supporting timbers on each side.(screw a 3x2 piece of wood over the ceiling joists on both sides of the loft hatch to prevent any tension and to prevent plaster cracking) then saw the middle joist on both sides and remove . fix new timber to open ends of loft hatch opening same size as original joists.nail 4.1 par to line the inside of the loft hatch flush with plaster then nail a 2x1 on to the lining for the loft hatch lid to sit on.then nail on archies to neaten the loft hatch opening
I hope this helps i'm happy with the finished result

good luck
Jacqueline x

 

[Feltwell]

Yes, it's easy enough to put a loft hatch in, as Jacqueline describes. Your picture shows fairly wide joist spacings - if it's a hatch for very occasional access only then you can probably get away with not cutting a joist in that case. I've fairly narrow joist spacings here but for one hatch that is for very occasional maintenance use only I didn't bother cutting a joist, just put a narrow -but wide in the other dimension - rectangular hatch in. I can still squeeze through (just!), and I'm far from being the smallest bloke around

I'd be tempted to get a professional pest controller in - the expense is minor versus even the admittedly slim chance that Roland Rat chews an electrical cable and starts a fire, especially with your house being thatched.

 

[88v8]

We get mice in our new (1960s) attic where the wiring is like yours, hmmm. I have a snap trap up there, it keeps the numbers down. I started netting the various gaps under the (thatched) eaves, but they can get through such a small space.... Rats however should be easier to keep out, but it depends whether you can get at your eaves to chicken-wire them. You have to be very thorough...

I put a hatch in one of our bedrooms to give access to the old attic. It was quite fiddly as the beams and hence the (lathe & plaster) ceiling are curved & crooked (2nd pic) and also I wanted it to look old, not as if I'd just gone down to the timber merchants and bought whatever came to hand.
The problem I had after cutting the hatch was that the 2 x 2" ceiling joists wouldn't support even my 10st weight without sagging and cracking the ceiling so I had to acrow the room before I could climb up there and exterminate the woodworm.

Ivor

 

[worms]

If there is no access, how did the POs get the new insallation in there? During a rethatch? :?

With rats & mice it is also worth thinking about the surrounds to the house. If you can reduce the amount of cover they are less likely to be exploring around the walls of the house in the first place. They really don't like to cross open ground.

 

[Jellyfire]

Thanks all, glad to hear that loft hatches don't seem to be too big a deal then, will probably go down that route. The PO's presumably did the wiring when the extension was added as that cuts into the thatch, I imagine the other side of the chimney is untouched since the ceiling went in as we are long straw so it's not completely stripped off during a rethatch.

Will have a look at clearing cover around the house. We have chicken wire all over the place around the edges of the thatch, maybe my best bet for now is to get the ladders out and do a thorough check on possible entry points then.

Can't see how thick the joists are, but they look thicker than 2x2 Ivor so hopefully they'll be ok.

Thanks for all the hatch advice, will have a proper digest of it all. Is it an attempt to do myself job or get a carpenter in do you think? Haven't really got any joinery experience at all. Got all the tools but not a clue!

 

[DJH]

With two cats and two extra kittens who heard we were a soft touch we rarely se traces of vermin unless they're left on the door mat for us. Cosidering we have a few outhouses (old farm buildings) and hens the cats do a very good job.

From my experience rats are creatures of habit and they will invariably skirt around the outside of rooms or buildings and their runs can be identified by a sort of blackish nearly shiny trail that their stomachs and tails cause when they run along in their own urine. They urinate constantly as I believe they don't have bladders.

My advice would be to try and find these runs (I don't know if you have any outhouses tacked on to your own house) and trace them back to the holes where they live and, with something like a spoon tied to the end of a stick, put poison as far as you can into the hole. Failing that place the poison as near as you can to their run.

Good luck.

Doug

 

[Zebra]

Is it an attempt to do myself job or get a carpenter in do you think? Haven't really got any joinery experience at all. Got all the tools but not a clue!

My advice is always to make a start and see how you go! I've made my own loft hatch with not much joinery experience. Make a hole, see where the joists are, if you don't have to cut one away then you're not entering into any structural alterations so it's just a cosmetic job, so you can give it a go, and if it's rubbish, get someone else to make you one!!

 

[Jellyfire]

That's been my approach on everything else Zebra and its worked out ok so far, so I guess I'll give it a go, thanks for the nudge. Doug, there is a lean-to/woodshed/toolshed attached, the more I look at it the more I think that may be the entry point, so going to clear that out and see if any of the signs you mention are apparent
Thanks all

 

[tycarregydwr]

I just wanted to mention that the council will treat rat infestations for free, but the treatment usually just involves putting down poison rather than more comprehensive prevention and rat-proofing. Still, might be worth a try before paying for a private exterminator?

 

[Schoolmarm]

You need to find where they are getting in really. The rat people are usually very good at finding out so you can then repair drains or block tunnels from the garden etc.


Have you looked under bushes and shrubbery in the garden? See if you can find any holes. The rat man will probably put bait bags in those as well. Also hoover up your rat droppings so you can see if you are getting any new ones. And where the new ones start etc.


Our drains had a hole in right next to the house, the rats just popped up from the sewers and went through a short tunnel to get to the cavity and underfloors of my kitchen in our last house. WWe had to dig up and replace quite a lot of broken old clay pipes.