Rain

[Geoffrey]

****ing gutters, ****ing old skylights, ****ing leaded windows, ****ing bay windows! WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO STOP THE RAIN COMING IN!!!!

Sorry - had to get that off my chest.

So having attended to our first bit of guttering and having had our first bit of heavy rain what can I say - It still pours all the way down the front wall and in through the sitting room window (and on through the interior cill into the wall then out onto the floor unless we're in and can get the towels out in time)!

 

[Manny]

I’m assuming the gutter isn’t actually cracked, broken, twisted or leaking itself.

I was always told that the fall on the gutter didn't matter so much, because it’ll always empties before it overflows. I guess this is probably true in the case of anything but a torrential downpour, unfortunately we get our fair share of those in the UK :wink:

I would question, are your rainwater goods actually taking the water away from the building in that case?

I lived in a house where this used to happen, the gutters were clear and in good order but they used to overflow. The problem we found what that the trees nearby had found a nice source of fresh water from a leaking surface water drain and over time the roots had grown through the drain and up the down pipe to the extent that they had almost reached the gutter. I have a photo of what came out, I’ll see if I can’t dig that out.

Anyway, I think my point was - are you down pipes blocked up?

[edit] Here you go, this was just part of what came out. Drain shaped tree roots:

 

[BMcD]

Crikey! Were you living in the Amazon?

 

[Carol]

You could also have added " ****ing lead roof valleys", especially the ones repaired at huge expense four years ago that are leaking again. And why is it always wet late at night so that the drips can be heard plinking on the ceiling? Commiserations!

 

[biffvernon]

We've had more rain in our rainguage today than on the 30th of June 2003 or on the 9th of September 2002, the previous two wettest days since my records began.

 

[Lime]

You could also have added " ****ing lead roof valleys", especially the ones repaired at huge expense four years ago that are leaking again. And why is it always wet late at night so that the drips can be heard plinking on the ceiling? Commiserations!

Lead used properly with the right thicknesses, expansion joints, overlaps and fixings will last 100 years.
Copper will last 400 years.

I think you need to blame the "****ing" builders for not doing the job properly.

 

[Penners]

Lead used properly with the right thicknesses, expansion joints, overlaps and fixings will last 100 years.
Copper will last 400 years.

Why this huge discrepancy in the lifetime of the two metals, Lime? In my ignorance, I think I would have expected lead to last longer, because (a) it tends to be used in thicker sheets than copper (doesn't it?), and (b) it's more flexible.

Is the answer something to do with the speed of oxidisation?

 

[Lime]

Lead used properly with the right thicknesses, expansion joints, overlaps and fixings will last 100 years.
Copper will last 400 years.

Why this huge discrepancy in the lifetime of the two metals, Lime? In my ignorance, I think I would have expected lead to last longer, because (a) it tends to be used in thicker sheets than copper (doesn't it?), and (b) it's more flexible.

Is the answer something to do with the speed of oxidisation?

Copper is able to be worked over and over again, lead is not.
Copper is made soft by the application of heat so repeated operations of heating-hammering can be carried out without effecting the strength or structure.
Lead will allow some working by bossing but there is a limit and the structure will be damaged if overworked. Much skill is required to do a good job.
Heating lead does not change the structure of the metal, unlike copper, but when hot it is softer and easier to work so renewing lead valleys etc is always better to do on a very hot day.

The oxidation of copper is well known as vert de gris and, as you say, prevents further oxidation.
Lead will slowly dissolve in rain particularly in stressed areas as the oxide washes off.
Like lead, copper should be used in the appropriate thickness so it is not always thin.

 

[Penners]

Copper is able to be worked over and over again, lead is not.

Many thanks for that explanation, Lime.

In a flashing application, the reworkability of the metal is surely not relevant, is it? It just sits there, decade in, decade out.

However, the oxidisation details look like the reason for the dramatic difference in life. I didn't know that verdigris actually prevents further oxidisation of copper.

(I also had never considered that "verdigris" derives from the French "vert de gris". This translates as "green of grey" - odd, eh?)

 

[biffvernon]

Greece rather than grey:

Online Etymology Dictionary[/url]"]verdigris
1300, from O.Fr. verte grez (13c.), verte de Grece (c.1170), lit. "green of Greece," from obs. Fr. verd, from L. viridis (see verdure). The reason for it being called that is not known.

 

[Penners]

Greece rather than grey:

Online Etymology Dictionary[/url]"]verdigris
1300, from O.Fr. verte grez (13c.), verte de Grece (c.1170), lit. "green of Greece," from obs. Fr. verd, from L. viridis (see verdure). The reason for it being called that is not known.

Aha - that makes more sense. Or does it? Why Greece? The definition cops out on that point.

 

[Lime]

In a flashing application, the reworkability of the metal is surely not relevant, is it? It just sits there, decade in, decade out.

That is what a lot of people think, including builders.
however it is not like that at all.
Lead in sheet form expands and contracts all the time when outside.
When on a roof lead should be fixed by nails at one end only. The other end should be allowed to move. It should not be too big either.

If it isn't able to move either the nail holes will tear or the lead crack.
Most of the longevity of a lead roof is dependent on it's moving but waterproof joints.

As for vert de gris, verdigris or verte de Grece I always though it was to do with a pigment of that name.

 

[biffvernon]

Yes, it was one of the earliest artificial pigments. Probably originating in ancient Greece and known to the Romans, it was made by standing copper sheets in winemarc, which turned to acetic acid and reacted with the copper to form a hydrated copper acetate. In the Middle Ages copper plates were attached to blocks of wood, soaked in vinegar and buried in dung. A few weeks later the blocks were dug up and the verdigris scraped off. It was the green used in illuminated manuscripts and much favoured by the Spanish old masters. The bright green colour develops over a few weeks in oil paint and is then light fast, but the pigment can react with other pigments and also degrades if not sealed from the atmosphere. It was also used as a drier in oil glazes. Its use declined in the 19th century when more reliable green pigments were invented.

 

[Penners]

That's fascinating. One of those facts that makes you wonder how on earth someone discovered it in the first place.

Like grinding up grass seeds to make flour to make bread.

Like extracting iron from iron ore.

Like mounting a disc on an axle to make (eventually) Aston Martins.

 

[biffvernon]

Hmmm, shame about that last one.

 

[Penners]

Haywains?