Question regarding removing part of a wall

[HampshireProp]

Hi,

My wife and I are renovating an old cottage in Hampshire and have listed planning consent for the works.

My query is relating to taking down an additional part of a wall that we do not have consent for, circa 2m. We currently have permission to change the location of a doorway in the 4m long wall and wanted to simply just remove the wall in the entirety. I'm assuming that this would need listed building consent again but we do not have the time and money to take this approach again. Removing this extra bit of brickwork will make a massive improvement to the property hence the question.

Normally (being aligned to the conservation ethos) I would not dream of doing it, however there are a few reasons why I do not see the harm.

- the wall is made from a mish mash of modern brickwork, it has already been taken down (there used to by a chimney here) in the 70's and then rebuilt. It is 100% not original
- the wall is in a bad state
- there would be no structural concerns as there is a timber beam at the top of the wall, though I will engage a structural engineer just in case#
- it's only circa 1.5m to 2m extra, where we already have consent to alter the wall anyway
- from a consenting officers point of view I believe that they would argue it changes the layout of the ground floor, for this reason I do not believe they'd give consent

What are your thoughts regarding going ahead with this? I do not see how a consenting officer would know that we have undertaken the alterations, my only fear would be that when selling the property a solicitor might see the difference between the floor plan and what we have permission for.

Thanks

 

[Flyfisher]

It seems that you're fully aware of the listed building consent rules so what you're really asking is 'can I get away with this'?

That the section of wall in question is not original to the house can certainly be part of the justification for removing it but, original or not, if it was there when the house was listed then the wall is part of that listing. I suspect you already know that.

I would not be so sure that your CO would not agree to the removal because it 'changes the layout of the ground floor'. I say that because I gained consent to remove an old but not original stud wall that changed the layout of the ground floor. My argument was that it returned the floor layout to what it was before the stud wall was built. So much depends on the house, the layout, the extent of the change and, of course, the CO, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand.

As for the 'can I get away with this' question, you're right that the CO is very unlikely to ever know. As for selling, unless you expect to sell very quickly, these things have a habit of disappearing into the past and I'd be surprised if a conveyancing solicitor scrutinised the before and after floorplans to the extent of noticing a 2m discrepancy in a wall, especially when there is formal consent for works to the wall anyway. So I suspect you probably would get away with it, but the risk is yours to decide, along with the reward and potential penalty.

So, the risk (of discovery) seems small and the reward seems high (assuming it enhances your amenity), but what of the potential penalty. As I understand things, unauthorised works to a listed building is a criminal offence, which is very naughty, but you'd be able to plead your case and I doubt that the unauthorised removal of 2m of modern wall with no historical significance would rank particularly high in the league of crimes against our built heritage. Furthermore, replacing the wall like-for-like would be a relatively trivial job, so what harm would actually be done?

Having said all that, amateur ramblings from someone on the internet is one thing, but only the responsible CO can really give you a definitive answer.

More info here: https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/planning/consents/lbc/

 

[HampshireProp]

It seems that you're fully aware of the listed building consent rules so what you're really asking is 'can I get away with this'?

That the section of wall in question is not original to the house can certainly be part of the justification for removing it but, original or not, if it was there when the house was listed then the wall is part of that listing. I suspect you already know that.

I would not be so sure that your CO would not agree to the removal because it 'changes the layout of the ground floor'. I say that because I gained consent to remove an old but not original stud wall that changed the layout of the ground floor. My argument was that it returned the floor layout to what it was before the stud wall was built. So much depends on the house, the layout, the extent of the change and, of course, the CO, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand.

As for the 'can I get away with this' question, you're right that the CO is very unlikely to ever know. As for selling, unless you expect to sell very quickly, these things have a habit of disappearing into the past and I'd be surprised if a conveyancing solicitor scrutinised the before and after floorplans to the extent of noticing a 2m discrepancy in a wall, especially when there is formal consent for works to the wall anyway. So I suspect you probably would get away with it, but the risk is yours to decide, along with the reward and potential penalty.

So, the risk (of discovery) seems small and the reward seems high (assuming it enhances your amenity), but what of the potential penalty. As I understand things, unauthorised works to a listed building is a criminal offence, which is very naughty, but you'd be able to plead your case and I doubt that the unauthorised removal of 2m of modern wall with no historical significance would rank particularly high in the league of crimes against our built heritage. Furthermore, replacing the wall like-for-like would be a relatively trivial job, so what harm would actually be done?

Having said all that, amateur ramblings from someone on the internet is one thing, but only the responsible CO can really give you a definitive answer.

More info here: https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/planning/consents/lbc/

Thank you for such a detailed response and to be honest it looks like your my own thoughts mirror yours.

I just wanted to mention a couple of caveats that I missed above.

- the house has already been extensively changed prior to it's listing and 2 other rooms have already been 'opened up'. This bodes well for what we want to do
- regarding the CO disagreeing with the change, in effect removing the extra 2m of wall does open up 2 rooms into 1 very large room and does change the layout extensively, hence the concern. We did actually do a pre-app a while ago and there comments read along the lines of, 'this would likely not get consent so don't bother trying'.
- the wall would not readily be rebuilt and it's likely part of the kitchen would occupy this space. So the added risk part would be some expensive re-work & loss of a new kitchen.

Sometimes its better to ask forgiveness than permission!