Problems in old bathroom

[JoceAndChris]

It's a tiny room carved out of the porch in the 30s, with original 30s loo and original 18th C flagstones laid on earth.

I recently rubbed down the old modern emulsion and applied Rof J's Casein Distemper (and actually I can't live with this colour, and want to wallpaper it now. :roll: ). Damp patches were never visible but since the distemper they are; you can see it in the photo on the left. Before I wallpaper I need to fix the damp. All I can think that might be responsible for it is this crack in the cement render on the other side:

It isn't huge but it is sort of in the right place and above it was a dripping overflow pipe (now fixed). Do I need to remove the cement render from, say, a 1 metre section? And allow to dry out?

The other problem is that I'd like to put a tiny sink in this corner of the room:

There's no water supplied to the room except the cistern water - Chris thinks cold water would be fairly straighforward, and the drain would bjust be a matter of lifting a few slabs externally to get it to join the sewer pipe, but how about hot water? That would have to come from over the other side of the building, and would be trickier. Is it worth doing? Would it be better to get one of those over the sink hot water things?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

 

[JoceAndChris]

One last question - if robgil's reading this - does he or anyone else know where I could get a cheap second -hand tiny column rad?

 

[Matt Green]

The plaster extends all the way to the flagstones. Any water trapped beneath the flags will move straight into the plaster and back out again from the insides, where there is less resistance (no cement render).

I think a 50mm gap at the base of the wall would be a good start.

 

[Feltwell]

The feasability of getting hot water there is more dictated by what routes you have available to run the pipe rather than the distance. Could be an easy job, could be a swine, without knowing the house there is no way of saying. The longer the pipe run though, the longer period you'll have to run water off to get hot water when you wash your hands.

Over-sink point-of-use heaters are hideous and best left in the 1960's where they belong, in my not very humble opinion! I went to lots of hassle to take one out of my daughter's bedroom and put a proper hot supply in instead. I've still got it, it will be used in my garage (once I've got rid ofthe building inspector and can plumb my sink in :wink: ).

Is there enough space for a little vanity unit there? You can get quite small water heaters that mount under the sink in a little cupboard.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-...arden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item27b81339b9

2 choices there - an "instantaneous" heater like the one above, which is just like an electric shower - it heats the water on demand but needs a pretty heavy duty power supply to do so, running direct from the consumer unit (have you already got an electric shower? you may not be able to use both at once). Or, a type which stores a small amount (5-10 l usually) of water and keeps it hot - needs a much lower rated power supply, you should be able to run it off the ring main for your sockets, but you are keeping water hot (albeit in an insulated vessel) for only occasional use. Plus they are larger than the instantaneous type.

 

[MdB]

(once I've got rid ofthe building inspector and can plumb my sink in :wink: ).

What is wrong with having a sink in the garage? Sounds like a good idea to me (and you obviously).

 

[Feltwell]

(once I've got rid ofthe building inspector and can plumb my sink in :wink: ).

What is wrong with having a sink in the garage? Sounds like a good idea to me (and you obviously).

The architect who drew up the plans for me recommended that I don't put it in until the building is signed off. Apparently any kind of a fixed heating appliance brings with it a whole load of rules around insulation levels in the building, and he'd had problems a few years earlier with a pedantic building inspector deeming a water heater in an unheated outbuilding to be a fixed heating appliance - which I suppose it is, but not for heating the building!

The other factor is the waste pipe will go straight out of the wall and into the side of my neighbour's manhole chamber (2 of his waste pipes do that already). The neighbour is fine with this, his drains are all on my land in any event. It's a little unorthodox and I'd rather that BC just didn't see it.

The inspector I normally get is a lovely bloke and very realistic, I'm confident I'd have no problems with him. However, one time when he was on holiday I got the chap from the next patch along who shall we say has a stricter interpretation of the rules and uses less common sense.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Feltwell - thanks for the very helpful post there. I guess if the water takes a long time to run hot there's little point installing it, as who would wait for it to run hot? Certainly not me - I'd just make do with the cold water. That room's utterly freezing and you don't want to be hanging about in it.
The little water heater is a very interesting idea, no, we don't have an electric shower so there would be no clash there. The only thing is that there isn't room for one unless we put in a narrower radiator, and moved it nearer the toilet - not sure how feasible that would be. Currently there are 18 cm between wall end and radiator.

The radiator could perhaps be moved across to the other side but that would mean lifting the flagstones, and I'd cry very much indeed if they broke. :?

Matt - thank you too - I wasn't sure if you meant the 5 cm gap to be inside or outside. Inside is lime plaster, outside is a sandstone plinth cemented on. It would be tricky to remove it but maybe for the best.

We'd intended to have all the cement removed externally next year, but unfortunately our multiple applications for mortgage extensions have all been refused; Chris has had an enforced pay cut and Nomura is in very serious trouble and looking like it might have to close down in Europe, which means he'd be out of work. Scary times. DIY times!

 

[vicky whitworth]

Jose, sorry to hear about Chris. Things are grim out there.
I'd not bother with the water heater. I think you're right that no one is going to hang around in there waiting for hot water. It's a summer loo, and charming too. I agree about the green

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Vicky - I'm a bit cross with Rose of Jericho as it's come out very different to their supposed " Eau de nil" on the chart. In reality, it's pretty close to FnB's lurid "Arsenic" - the above photos are flattering. Green is a mistake altogether for that room though - I now think it needs to be a warm colour, possibly even a boring cream.

Chris will be alright I'm sure; he always is.

Glad you agree with me on the not waiting for hot water thing - I've just realised I don't wait for it at any point in the house. It will be much easier and cheaper just to fit a sink with a cold water tap, which still provides an extra place to clean teeth if there are guests.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Funny, I thought it looked a bit 'arsenic' like. You can't send guests in there to clean their teeth - they'll die of shock. Mind you, green's quite good to hide a nice bit of mouldy wall. Perhaps you should encourage moss to grow, and ferns...
It's always going to be a tad damp even if you fix the problem on the left hand side? It looks like one of those rooms, and if so won't wallpaper peel off and/or get foxed. Overpainting the green though will be fun. Golly, what a challenge.
Vicky

 

[Feltwell]

The "takes up no more space" and easiest to install option is a small oversink one like this:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic...7?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item27b8f14ddd

I don't like the look of them as I said above but that's only my personal opinion! My in-laws have exactly the same unit as the one above in their outside loo, whilst it's doesn't exactly deliver a torrent of hot water it's OK to wash your hands in and it doesn't need a dedicated power circuit, you can probably - please do check though - run it from the nearest ring main. 3kw is no more than some kettles and plug in heaters.

You can get a similar undersink version which even if not hidden would be less obtrusive. They say it needs a spray tap - so forget getting any nice old taps, this would just give a dribble out of those! You need a tap that delivers a fine mist like spray. This is slightly higher rated and will pull more like 15 amps (which is more than you put through an ordinary plug) so, especially given Beacon Cottage's less than perfect wiring, how you would wire it in needs checking. You probably can still connect it to the ring main but I'd imagine it may depend on how many other sockets & spurs are on that main already.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-5Kw-Inl...arden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&hash=item4cfbb8c364

Personally, I like to have warm water to wash my hands in. What a wuss eh?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks Feltwell! Very helpful indeed - just wondering if those ugly things could be boxed in a very small painted cupboard.

This is the only sink I've found that a)I find acceptable b) fits

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMALL-BASIN-CLOAKROOM-WALL-HUNG-/330628127190?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item4cfaf8d9d6

I wonder if that would work with the hearting contraption in your link?

Personally, I'd prefer a 20s/30s looking sink and tap with just cold water, if I could get such things, that modern looking devices with heat.

I spend a lot of time cleaning the bathrooms/kitchen/ hen things/washing brushes - my hands get positively bleached many times a day- they don't really need hot water when I visit this loo. As for guests - well, I don't think one should ruin the look of things for them.

 

[JoceAndChris]

It's always going to be a tad damp even if you fix the problem on the left hand side? It looks like one of those rooms, and if so won't wallpaper peel off and/or get foxed.

No, I don't think so - we're on a windy hill-top, with free-draining stony soil, and it seldom rains - it's not a damp house at all- just a house suffering with cement and a historic lack of heat/insulation.

The dining room is now dry as a bone, the wallpaper's fine, and it had very similar problems - fixed by removing the cracked cement render on the exterior. This room needs to be free of cement on the outside, it needs a double glazed window and skylight, and a better radiator that goes on more!

 

[Feltwell]

Thanks Feltwell! Very helpful indeed - just wondering if those ugly things could be boxed in a very small painted cupboard.

This is the only sink I've found that a)I find acceptable b) fits

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMALL-BASIN-CLOAKROOM-WALL-HUNG-/330628127190?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item4cfaf8d9d6

I wonder if that would work with the hearting contraption in your link?

Personally, I'd prefer a 20s/30s looking sink and tap with just cold water, if I could get such things, that modern looking devices with heat.

I spend a lot of time cleaning the bathrooms/kitchen/ hen things/washing brushes - my hands get positively bleached many times a day- they don't really need hot water when I visit this loo. As for guests - well, I don't think one should ruin the look of things for them.

That sink looks exceptionally modern, but then I know very little! That tap would not work with "my" heating contraption - you need a spray tap for the hot as it would deliver much less flow than the cold. I think you'd probably need to go to plumbers merchant. Robgil may know more - I know very little about taps, other than that some are designed to work with high pressure, some with low, so I can't see any mixer tap being an option when the hot water will be at such a low pressure. I've just remembered, of course you're not on mains - does your system just rely on gravity feed from a tank in the loft for all the taps? With any heating appliance just watch what minimum flow they need.

Frankly, it's sounding more and more that if you're really not fussed about hot water then doing without it will be the easiest solution of all!

This is older than 1930's but looks much nicer to me than the one on your link:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Doulton-C..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item336e3f2600

This is the sort I've fitted in a very small cloakroom in a 1920's house before - modern but very plain, with 2 tap holes as I had hot & cold and didn't want a mixer:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cloakroom..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item2a15cf8111

You could get a tiny 1 tap hole version and just fit a cold tap instead of a mixer if you wanted. You could always get a nice old tap then - with a very plain modern sink I don't think it would shout out at you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corner-Wa..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item4151384064

 

[Feltwell]

Just spotted this - would it not go rather nicely with your loo? I reckon it would, but being male I realise how much our opinions on such matters are worth :wink: Just so long as it's not too big. There's loads of different styles available though.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TAMARIND-..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item53d9667426

 

[Penners]

Joce - getting back to the cause of the damp, Is that a window-sill that the exterior plaster crack is running from? If so, I wonder whether water could be getting behind the rendering via some poor sealing around the window? It's worth having a good look. As well as the general fit of the window frame, check whether there's a properly functioning drip bar (or groove) on the underside of the sill.

But I also agree with Andrew about the interior plaster - you would be wise to cut it up the wall a couple of inches, so that it isn't in contact with the floor, and cover the gap with a skirting board.

I reckon the little 3kW instantaneous water heater that Feltwell found on Ebay would suit you ideally, as it doesn't need a special electric circuit. You could power it from an ordinary fused connector on your ring main. And of course it only needs a cold water feed, which you could presumably branch off the feed to the loo cistern. OK, the unit is not a thing of beauty, but it's not hideous. And I reckon a small cloakroom is somewhere where you can allow your aesthetic standards to slip a bit, for practical reasons!

Wouldn't a corner wash-basin be best for the spot where you want to put it? There are lots of different sizes available - here's one from Plumbworld.

You wouldn't of course, need a tap, because the water heater has its own on a swing-arm.

Does the loo discharge horizontally out through the wall (P-trap) or vertically downwards into the floor (S-trap)? If the former, you might be able to cut the waste pipe from the washbasin into the pipe behind the loo.

 

[JoceAndChris]

This is older than 1930's but looks much nicer to me than the one on your link:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Doulton-C..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item336e3f2600

This is the sort I've fitted in a very small cloakroom in a 1920's house before - modern but very plain, with 2 tap holes as I had hot & cold and didn't want a mixer:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cloakroom..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item2a15cf8111

You could get a tiny 1 tap hole version and just fit a cold tap instead of a mixer if you wanted. You could always get a nice old tap then - with a very plain modern sink I don't think it would shout out at you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Corner-Wa..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item4151384064

Feltwell - thank you so much to going to the trouble of finding all those lovely sinks for me -much nicer than the one I found. They're gorgeous, especially the 1900 Doulton one - but unfortunately all too big. I only have 30cm of depth to play with otherwise the door won't open. I can't get the door to open the other way, well, I could, but it would smash into another door behind. I can't change the door either - in another property we put in a bi-fold door but that would look wrong here. Plus I'm restoring the wood graining, have spent on a nice lock, etc.

Even the Tamarind doesn't come small enough, which is a shame as that's lovely too.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Joce - getting back to the cause of the damp, Is that a window-sill that the exterior plaster crack is running from? If so, I wonder whether water could be getting behind the rendering via some poor sealing around the window? It's worth having a good look. As well as the general fit of the window frame, check whether there's a properly functioning drip bar (or groove) on the underside of the sill.

But I also agree with Andrew about the interior plaster - you would be wise to cut it up the wall a couple of inches, so that it isn't in contact with the floor, and cover the gap with a skirting board.

I reckon the little 3kW instantaneous water heater that Feltwell found on Ebay would suit you ideally, as it doesn't need a special electric circuit. You could power it from an ordinary fused connector on your ring main. And of course it only needs a cold water feed, which you could presumably branch off the feed to the loo cistern. OK, the unit is not a thing of beauty, but it's not hideous. And I reckon a small cloakroom is somewhere where you can allow your aesthetic standards to slip a bit, for practical reasons!

Wouldn't a corner wash-basin be best for the spot where you want to put it? There are lots of different sizes available - here's one from Plumbworld.

You wouldn't of course, need a tap, because the water heater has its own on a swing-arm.

Does the loo discharge horizontally out through the wall (P-trap) or vertically downwards into the floor (S-trap)? If the former, you might be able to cut the waste pipe from the washbasin into the pipe behind the loo.

Thanks Mr P - it's an S-trap so some exterior work will be required.

If I could find a corner washbasin to fit I'd be happy with that, but as I said I only have 30cm of depth - will check outhe Plumbworld ones though, thank you.

Your suggestions about the cause of damp are much appreciated, I'll have a good look tomorrow in the light.

It would be nice to fit skirtings after removing plaster and drying out, that's a good idea. I'll have to go and look up that old thread on curved skirtings - another job I haven't made happen yet.

 

[JoceAndChris]

This one would fit and is maybe just about acceptable?

http://www.qssupplies.co.uk/bathroom-furniture-shower-taps/21996.htm

 

[Feltwell]

My parents fitted one like that in the downstairs loo in their old house. It was better than nothing but a bit of a squeeze to use - I could only ever get one hand at a time in it and it used to splash on the floor quite a bit as you used it, as you tended to bang your hand into the bottom of the tap if you weren't very careful.

Is 300mm your absolute limit? This is 315:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAK-Compa..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item3a6cb49ac3

Or how about this? Looks a lot more useable than the one you've posted & it's 300mm in one dimension, if you've enough room the other way. With the tap to one side, the bowl goes all the way back to the wall so should be bigger.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Compact-L..._Garden_Bathroom_Sinks_PP&hash=item23051836e2