previous owner took stuff from g2 listed house.

[glayzell]

just want to check something with those 'in the know'

i have recently taken possession of a grade 2 listed house. When we viewed it there was loads of architectual salvage stuff laying around which has now gone, i was hoping it would have been left but i wasnt that lucky.

What has gone are the bakalite switches througout (bare wires left wrapped in insulation tape), there was a grate to a fire in one of the bedrooms (the bit that goes on the hearth), in the dinning room there was an opening for a fireplace with a fireplace leant up against it.

my wife spoke to the conservation officer and told them, as not only do we feel a couple of items that add to the story of the building have been lost, the conservation officer saw the house before and i dont want him telling me that i have removed stuff without consulting him.

His response was that he could do nothing legally, we are liable, but he would help where he could.

any views on this??

 

[Moo]

The legal eagles will be able to confirm or contradict, but I thought it was illegal for vendors to remove fixtures and fittings.

 

[skier-hughes]

I would immediately consult your house purchase solicitor.

If I remember right anything attached is part of the house, unless specifically mentioned in the sale contract.

Even so, if they did say they were removing light switches they should have left ones that worked and had a certificate from a qualified electrician.

Everything you've listed in my opinion should be yours, so if a kind word between the two solicitors doesn't work I can see you suing them for the money to replace them with like.

 

[Nemesis]

I think that the light switches are a fixture and unless specified that they would be removed should really not have been.

The fireplace leaning up against a wall - not a fixture, although it may have been removed from the hole it equally may not have been, but another ready to be installed. If it had been installed you would have been on safer ground.

The grate again - sad, not normally something which people would remove but not attached so...

It's a grey area , but I don't think that there is agreat deal you will be able to do do get most of it returned.

 

[glayzell]

they did say that they would be taking the switches and i overlooked this, even so, surely they should have some sort of consent to do this, i have had to put some cheap Mk's in temporarily with my very limited electrical experience.

If i am honest, i can live with the switches, and the fireplace i can prove that it had come out of the hole of was going into it, but the hearth guard thing made the fireplace complete, now it has been seperated.

 

[glayzell]

i should add, all of these items plus everthing else in the house were sold to a local antique shop in the town and i am aware they still have the fireplace, which i can buy back for £250 (jokers).

This leads me one to the arguement about architectual salvage merchants encouraging the distruction of historic buildings. It is clear in this house.

 

[Nemesis]

I'd pay the cash pronto and get your fireplace back. In the overall scheme of things when moving that sort of cash isn't too much - it was illegal to remove it, but I doubt that the CO would be pressing charges sadly. You could ask though... maybe a letter could be sent... you could also inform the police and there's now a unit which deals with architectural theft, which is what this is. The dealer is selling something illegally removed from a listed building. I agree wholeheartedly re salvage encouraging thgis sort of thing.

The grate is sad - I'd write to the people and say how saddened you are could you have it back please.

I suspect you will be able to get another - or buy it from the dealer - but annoying I agree.

 

[skier-hughes]

i should add, all of these items plus everthing else in the house were sold to a local antique shop in the town and i am aware they still have the fireplace, which i can buy back for £250 (jokers).

This really is taking the Mickey.

If they were moving to a nice old house and had taken ages sourcing these switches and had said to you that they wanted them for that reason I could understand, but to blatantly remove to add a little extra money in their pockets is just sad.

I would get a letter to your CO stating exactly what has been removed, and enclose pictures, and get him to reply that he cannot take any action to recoup these items and knows they are missing.
DO NOT rely on his chat with you.
Next week you may have a new CO and he may well want to know why these things have been changed.

Maybe have a chat with the owner of antique shop, explain the situation to him nicely, see if you can come to a deal where he makes a little money for his trouble.
If he doesn't want to play then say you'll be seeking an injunction to stop him from selling the items while a court case goes through - speak of years of misery - explain the G2 listing, the unautherised removal, you're suing the previous owners, the council will no doubt be involved, they may check all his stock to see what other items he may have that have been illegally removed, they'll then keep close eyes on his stock, this stuff may be confiscated as the result of it being illegally obtained so he won't see any money from it when it's returned to it's rightful owner (the house).... then see if he wants to play ball.

Buying them from him is similar to buying them from the previous owners as they may have asked you for money for these things, like some people do with carpets etc.

OK it's blackmail to an extent and some of it may not be strictly true. It just depends on how much you want the stuff and how nasty he is when you speak to him.

Graham

 

[Nemesis]

What age is the house?

http://www.theft-alerts.com/about-ta.html

 

[glayzell]

approx 1820.

When my wife spoke to the dealer he said it couldnt have been the original fireplace as it was french......i dont think he got the point.

the thing with this house is it has been butchered and added to over its life but all these quirky little things like bakalite switches, a french fireplace, one of the front sashes predating the building, one of the rear windows being an old leaded casesment, etc all add to the charachter and it is so dissapointing that not everyone can see this, including CO's, but certainly not all of them.

thanks for your advise...i will look into some of these avenues.

 

[Nemesis]

Is the fireplace mentioned in the listing desription?

No matter when, it was stolen and it's illegal!

Also - call the Georgian Group case officer for your region, ask if any help can be given from that side...

 

[plumbers mate]

You're not even supposed to take plants from the garden, even those in pots unless you agree it with your purchaser beforehand.

 

[Sal]

I know you cannot even remove picture hooks without making the walls good again after - if you take electrical fittings, you have to make them good - i.e. working. and thats not even taking into account the listed status. i dould definitely take pcitures and write a letter to CO and get their response in writing. I would also go back to the solicitor and ask if they were within their rights.. time is important here... you should really contact solicitor the minute you spot ssomething amiss

 

[NT]

I'd be tempted to go to the police first to give details and get an incident number, then go with this to the dealer, stating you'll press charges if all goods are not returned undamaged within 24 hrs. You might possibly go to the vendor too stating criminal charges are on the cards if not returned, so the vendor might pressure the dealer. What money you may have to pay the dealer is a matter of what you think you can achieve. Hopefully there will be various witnesses who have seen the fireplace, switches etc in the house, and the dealer can be reminded of such. Also being listed, s/he doesnt know what pictures have been taken at times, etc. Even the estate agents pics might include the fireplace.

An incident number makes it real and immediate. There is then no question of whether you may or may not go the police route. You can decide not to pursue the case if everything is recovered.

IANAL, so dont do anything I say. Ever. And thats not advice either.


NT

 

[Anne]

Go back to your attorney who handled the closing for you. The vendor should have written a disclosure statement which says what will stay and what will go. If that exists you have legal standing to get any items back they did not say they were taking.

 

[Moo]

But don't, on any account, engage a solicitor. Whatever the outcome that route will cost you a great deal more than just buying the stuff from the dealer.
I agree that there's a moral issue here, regarding the theft of period artefacts, but unless you're rich as Croesus (sp?) you sometimes have to grit your teeth and do the wrong thing for the right reason.

 

[Nemesis]

The switches there may be a case, the grate isn't a fixture so no chance, the fireplace ditto. It was removed before the sale.


But - it should not have been removed as it was part of the listed structure, so removal was illegal.

 

[NT]

3 crimes committed by 2 parties - thats what I call pressure. I'd get some witnesses to go see them in the shop too.


NT

 

[Paul Hopper]

The real point here is what you want to achieve in all this.

Myself I would fight to the last breath to have things re instated to the standard I beleived was present at the time I viewed the property.

I do not have a death wish nor do I wish to see people ripped off but if we do not fight for what is right then no one else will do it for us!

Follow the sound advice posted on this thread, Just as we would wish to see dishonest dpc merchants personally injected, so we should stand up for ourselves. If you want the bakelite fittings back and the fireplace, do a sugested and get witnesses, a police incident number and one (yes just one ) letter from your solicitor couched in the terms suggested by others. Nemesis and Skier-hughes have the idea. Do not ever give up! Use your CO and as has been said, confirm any conversation you may have with him/her in writing and with photographs. With luck the fus you make will embarrass the other parties at the very least.
stick to your guns..

good luck

Paul

 

[worms]

I'd get some witnesses to go see them in the shop too.

Yep! Send the boys round...!