Pre sale questions

[jocelyn plummer]

Uffff, we were to have exchanged contracts yesterday--- at 4pm, coveniently just before close of business, our Estate Agent informed us that our Vendor had not been able to exchange contracts with us because her Solicitor had advised her that there are still outstanding questions to be answered. Indeed this is true. It's what followed that surprised me---one of the issues is the installation of the combi gas boiler ( early this year).... no paperwork, guarantee, or Corgi certificate. The second is the date of rewiring ( recent), again no paperwork. The third is no record of the replacement windows ( previous owner) or evidence of local authority buildings regulations approval. The fourth is Chancel liability and ''Would we please split the costs of obtaining the necessary certificates/policys etc''-----also ''in order not to hold things up any longer would I please check with my Solicitor what other information he requires and let her know first thing Monday morning.'' :roll:

I thought that all those things are the responsibility of the home owner prior to selling and will not be making a contribution.

Hrrumph--all that follows last week's saga, recently resolved, when we argued against purchasing 8 antique style light switches and 5 antique radiator valves fitted to the reclaimed radiators, outside the purchase price.!!!

 

[middi]

It appears to be a last minute dirty trick to me. ( I am sure you will sort it out ).

The thing that puzzles me :- " antique radiator valves", I did't think there were such a thing. :?

 

[MdB]

If it were me, I would expect a house to come with those various bits of paperwork. I would also have thought that getting those bits of paper in retrospect could be difficult (i.e. expensive) and could potentially show up various problems. I wouldn't expect to have to contribute either.

 

[ljn]

Looks like the seller is in trouble.
Even if a buyer were OK about a house with illegally installed and potentially dangerous services, the solicitor acts on behalf of the lender (if a mortgage is involved) and won't be able to let it pass.
The same goes for the windows.
So they'll have to sort things out and certainly at their expense.
The radiator valve issue is absurd.

 

[Nemesis]

However, how long ago were the windows installed, is it a listed building?

 

[Flyfisher]

Even if a buyer were OK about a house with illegally installed and potentially dangerous services, the solicitor acts on behalf of the lender (if a mortgage is involved) and won't be able to let it pass.
The same goes for the windows.

Surely the solicitor acts on the instructions given by their client? The decision to accept such shortcomings with any property should lie with the client, not with the solicitor. The solicitor should certainly advise about such things but they are not there to make their own decisions about a transaction.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Meant to say antique style radiator valves!!

The replacement windows could have been done anytime between 2000 and now. The house is not listed, but within the conservation area. Built around 1900 It was originally 3 cottages, two being joined to make one double fronted and a single semi. Although I have lived in the town for 30 odd yearsI never really toook much notice of houses outside the listed building area, so I have not got a clue when the back windows were replaced or when the renovations were done, this is another thing we are trying to establish. I do think that they have now been driven into a corner.

Oddly enough, when I first saw the house earlier this year my initial re-actions were that the windows had been very badly and hurriedly shoved into position, with raw , hacked brick work around the outside. I also spotted evidence off offcuts to flooring etc chucked in the shed and commented to the Estate Agent at the time that I wanted more information before making an offer. I never got an answer but our original offer which was very low, reflecting my instincts. It was rejected in favour of another. The house was then withdrawn from the market because the Vendor failed to get the house she wanted, and re-entered 6 weeks ago and our improved offer was accepted. I really like the house and the garden that is so typical of it's era, and am happy to put things right as the budget allows. Obviously, no paperwork/satisfactory answers = revised offer to reflect the risks , take it or leave it. Unfortunately the Agent is as useless as a chocolate teapot and I can't trust him so I shall have to wait for the Legal Beagles to battle it out. I stupidly thought, having been so well advised when buying and selling in North Norfolk, that I would benefit from similar professionalism down here, and that other period property owners would have their paperwork in place--- silly me. Fortunately I have a fantastic Solicitor who has conveyed 5 houses for me.

 

[Lime]

I can't help feeling that if the solicitor is so wonderful he/she would not have left it to the estate agent to tell you about the lack of paperwork.
What on earth have your solicitors been doing ?
It is the solicitors job to keep you informed and they must have been aware of no paperwork all the time.
The paperwork issue should have been sorted out long before any arrangements were made to exchange.

 

[Pford75]

Poor you....I know what it's like when these last minute delays occur. Hope they get sorted swiftly.

Anyway, I think the reason that solicitors aren't always very studious at chasing these bits of paper are twofold:

1. Vendors often don't have them and getting duplicates can be tricky

2. Purchasers often don't insist on seeing them...too often they are happy with the 'assurances' of the vendor.

It's a point worth noting to forum members though that LBC and approval for electrics may well be requested at the time of sale. I'm sure there are many 000's of people still doing their own electrical work without getting it 'signed off' by building control.

The valves is a classic case of a disgruntled vendor who feels that they haven't acheived the price they want for their house and pursuing it via ultimately irrelevant smaller items. We had one vendor try to insist that we paid £5000 for some maroon carpets he had newly laid to sell his house (they were excluded from the sale price)....when we suggested he take them with him as we didn't want them and certainly wouldnt pay 5 grand for them, he got most upset.

On our current house, the vendors tried to insist that we paid them for the oil in the fuel tank when we moved in (almost impossible, since how can you know how much oil will be used between exchange and completion?)....our solicitor suggested they take the oil with them :wink:

It's amazing how people haggle over 'pence' yet will drop their price by 5 grand quite quickly.

 

[Me!]

When we bought our current house, costing over £350,000, the previous owners tied to charge us an extra £50 for a few logs left in a shed.
I told them to take them, ....... they didn't bother!

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Setting the record straight, my Solicitor is steadily gathering the information as it is returned to him, chasing up for more detailed/and missing replies to questions and regularly reporting back to us. The Estate Agent interferred---- worried about his commission I expect----!!!!

From what I can see, there is a great deal more digging to be done yet, so we are off to North Norfolk for a day trip tomorrow to blow away the cobwebs! .

 

[Nemesis]

The reason I asked about windows is that unless listed (in which case action can be taken at any time if they were installed without LBC) there is a time limit beyond which a local authority cannot take any action regarding things which have not had building control approval.

At times solictors are asking for certificates (and insurances) which would be pointless chasing up. It simply clogs up the sale.

 

[Pford75]

Good point by Nemesis.

Does anyone know what the time limit on Part P for electrics is?

 

[ljn]

I think building control can intervene within 6 months.
In theory, they could intervene later with an injunction, but this costs a lot and is very unpopular with councils.
For planning it is 4 years for residential. No time limit for listed buildings.

I had a freeholder who built a 100% garden extension in a conservation area. The extension was part of the concersion from flower shop to a rastaurant. Planning pernission was obtained for the conversion, but not for the extension. Building notice was submitted, but the inspectors never allowed in. So the notice lapsed. Our main concern was spread of fire.

After trying to negotiate some mitigating noise reduction, improvements to the view and fire safety issues, I dobbed him in to the council. Building control didn't want to know, planning were going to let him get away with a certificate of lawfulness due to the applicant's declaration that the extension was over 4 years old -It wasn't.
I submitted proof that this was a blatant lie and he eventually was eventually asked to submit a retrospective application.
Building control took the stance that works would have been carried out tho the standards applicable at the time, knowing very well they weren't). So even in the case of a building open to the public and risk of fire spread, putting endangering the lives of those who live above were no case to intervene. The fact that full width extensions were not allowed in the conservation area did not prevent the planning team from granting a full width and full length extension with a nice 11m x 7m bitumen felt roof.

On a lighter note, we got the council to put a "green roof" as a condition.
The owner covered the roof in green bitumen felt. Nice!
We went beck to the council and they pointed out the "GREEN REEF PLANTED WITH SEDUM GRASS OR SIMILAR" bit in the conditions.
So the owner put down some polythene sheets (the stuff for shrink-wrapping goods) and laid rolls of B&Q turf directly on top. The council was happy that this was a sustainable green roof. It was supprisingly sustainable, till summer.

Sorry for the ranting story. So:

If the window installation doesn't have an installation date, the vendor could always make a declaration. If the declared date is over 4 years, then there is no problem. At the most they would have to apply for a certificate of lawfulness. Or retrospective planning application if someone proved this to be a lie.

The quality of the actual windows and installation is another matter.

As for the electrics and gas, a dodgy installation could be dangerous. I would expect a safety certificate at least. The mortgage company, if you have one, won't be satisfied if there are no safety certificates and a declared installation date that indicates all is legal, and your solicitor is obliged to pass that info on to them. If the building burned down due to unsafe electrics, for example, I bet and the insurance company would find some way not to pay out, which would be a problem for you, and also for the lender.

The electrical installation could be fully checked and ceritfied by an NIC/EIC inspector. Any issues would have to be sorted out.
or they could say they hadn't done the work, and just provide a safety certificate.
Same for gas, but more complicated as the installer will not want to put his carer on the line for someone else's bad soldering and many pipes will be covered by flooring etc. At the worst, they could get the boiler removed and re-fitted!
Again, they could say they hadn't done the work, and just provide a gas safety certificate.

 

[Nemesis]

Don't confuse listed building consent (for which there is no time limit for action) with building control consent.

The two are different.

And yes - some things may just be aesthetically not nice (windows not in a listed building) but some things may be unsafe, which is why there are all these regs in the first place.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Thank you for sharing experiences and wise words. Hopefully then, our Solicitor will not need to overly pursue windows and wiring since I reckon they were done sometime around 2000, when the property first changed hands, just wish the current Vendor would offer more info, after all she must have managed to buy it without too much fuss, what info was she given, where is it?

Thanks Peeps for broadening my horizons beyond the packing cases--- that's the trouble with being squeezed into a teeney tiny rented, the 4 walls close the brain cells down!

Cheers!

 

[Pford75]

Doesn't it seem slightly perverse that a cosmetic change to a Listed Building (such as perhaps changing the colour of a front door) can be pursued by the council without time limit, yet bodged electrics without proper building control certificates must be challenged within 6 months?

I'm not arguing for a relaxation of LB legislation....just a tightening of building control. Seems pretty pointless if people realise that all they have to do is keep it quiet for 6 months.