Potential failed Bressummer or something else?

[Mishimiau]

Hello all,

I’ve been enjoying this group and learning so much from everyone’s expertise—thank you! I’m hoping you can help with a conundrum in my Victorian terrace flat (c.1870), which I bought earlier this year.

At purchase, my surveyor flagged a potential failed bressummer but noted it wasn’t urgent. Upon further preliminary inspection by a structural surveyor they suggested the issue might not be the bressummer but rather movement in the wall and lintels above the windows, causing a V-shaped inward distortion that created the illussion of a failed bressummer but that the windows were not dipping down in the middle, they were level. He recommended remedial work using the Helifix system to tie the wall to the roof rafters (which would also need checking for rot or woodworm) but said the only way to rule out a failed bressummer would be to open up the wall/floor to inspect.

Other issues include:

• Significant water ingress and damp around the windows due to cracked and missing pointing.
• Woodworm found in the floorboards below the bay window (possibly affecting the bressummer?).
• No major damage to the ceiling below, apart from minor hairline cracks.

Questions:

1. Could this just be caused by the lintels, or should I investigate the bressummer further?
2. Would it be worth having a full structural inspection to confirm the cause before starting Helifix tie work?
3. Is the Helifix tie work quite straight forward?
4. Has anyone done similar repairs—would tying the lintels to the rafters stop further movement?

I’d love to hear your thoughts or experiences. Or if your well-trained eyes pick up anything else I should consider. Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

[Cubist]

Hi There and Welcome.

Whilst the technical nature of the problems you're facing are relatively straight forward I'm afraid that any remedial works to address these may be complicated by legal issues concerning your ownership. Is it safe to presume you have acquired the Freehold rather than a Leasehold to the property? Is it safe to assume that the flat concerned is represented by the 2nd AND the Top Floor only of this building? And that the Ground and First floors are owned or controlled by other persons/parties? Are all your rights, exclusive and shared obligations and responsibilities clearly articulated in the contract you've signed?

Forgive me, but this is a potential minefield of contractual obligations and responsibilities that need to be thoroughly understood before you commission any works. You could, without realising it expose yourself significant financial loss and also to legal proceedings in court.

I am also rather puzzled and worried by some of your surveyors language and suggestions as, to me, its unclear what is really meant.

That aside, I think you would be well advised to engage a good structural engineer but again take no direct remedial action until you have a clear understanding of the limitations within which you must work.

Cheers for now.
Cubist

 

[Stevers]

That's a very large bay window requiring a very long bressummer beam carrying a fair bit of masonry on it - the windows doing nothing to stiffen that masonry. The slopes in window cills and deflection in the floor would be hard to explain if the bresummer wasn't at fault, particularly if the floor joists run into the wall above the bresummer further increasing the load. With those windows there's lots of scope for the movement resulting from the bresummer beam deflection to disrupt the pointing and for the resulting cracks, in hard to access masonry, to let moisture in to exacerbate the situation. Even if the joists are parallel to the bresummer, which I think is likely, the skirting boards and herringbone cross bracing could still drag the floor down with the wall. All this is reasoned speculation and no substitute for having a good look to confirm what's really going on!

I'd class that as one of the more ambitious examples of Victorian domestic architecture, not unreasonably needing a bit of love after 150 years.

 

[Mishimiau]

Hi There and Welcome.

Whilst the technical nature of the problems you're facing are relatively straight forward I'm afraid that any remedial works to address these may be complicated by legal issues concerning your ownership. Is it safe to presume you have acquired the Freehold rather than a Leasehold to the property? Is it safe to assume that the flat concerned is represented by the 2nd AND the Top Floor only of this building? And that the Ground and First floors are owned or controlled by other persons/parties? Are all your rights, exclusive and shared obligations and responsibilities clearly articulated in the contract you've signed?

Forgive me, but this is a potential minefield of contractual obligations and responsibilities that need to be thoroughly understood before you commission any works. You could, without realising it expose yourself significant financial loss and also to legal proceedings in court.

I am also rather puzzled and worried by some of your surveyors language and suggestions as, to me, its unclear what is really meant.

That aside, I think you would be well advised to engage a good structural engineer but again take no direct remedial action until you have a clear understanding of the limitations within which you must work.

Cheers for now.
Cubist

Hello Cubist, thanks for your reply. Yes it is a shared leasehold and as such means both the owner of the ground floor flat (who is the head lease holder) and I are both responsible for works and split them 50/50. The ground floor flat's owner is responsible for arranging the works. It is a bit of a minefield as we have differing opinions of how to approach the works that need doing.

'Forgive me, but this is a potential minefield of contractual obligations and responsibilities that need to be thoroughly understood before you commission any works. You could, without realising it expose yourself significant financial loss and also to legal proceedings in court.' what are the issues you would foresee here?

Do you think the works to stabilise the movement could be quite straight forward?

The owner of the ground floor flat is currently in the process of selling and I have considered purchasing it myself in order to streamline any future works that need doing and to make sure the building is treated as a whole. But not sure if that would just be an even bigger (doubly expensive) responsibility as I would be paying for all the works myself then rather than 50/50? There are a number of expensive issues that need to be dealt with, like the roof will need redoing in the next 10 years and the chimney needs work, it has terrible cracked render along the whole side of the building. Perhaps it would not be the best investment. The ground floor flat seems to be very damp too though the owner says they did a damp proof course. I thought it might mean I would be able to protect my flat above better by purchasing below and tackling the whole thing as one.

 

[Mishimiau]

That's a very large bay window requiring a very long bressummer beam carrying a fair bit of masonry on it - the windows doing nothing to stiffen that masonry. The slopes in window cills and deflection in the floor would be hard to explain if the bresummer wasn't at fault, particularly if the floor joists run into the wall above the bresummer further increasing the load. With those windows there's lots of scope for the movement resulting from the bresummer beam deflection to disrupt the pointing and for the resulting cracks, in hard to access masonry, to let moisture in to exacerbate the situation. Even if the joists are parallel to the bresummer, which I think is likely, the skirting boards and herringbone cross bracing could still drag the floor down with the wall. All this is reasoned speculation and no substitute for having a good look to confirm what's really going on!

I'd class that as one of the more ambitious examples of Victorian domestic architecture, not unreasonably needing a bit of love after 150 years.

Thanks Stevers, do you think it could still be a failed bressummer even though the window sills are level horizontally? There has obviously been a lot of movement in that window and the two walls have moved in towards the room in a V shape, meaning the column of bricks in between the window has been pushed inwards and that's what created the impression of the sills sloping. I'm trying to work out whether it's worth just doing the the tie work to the lintels or if we really need to investigate the bressummer and that would resolve it and the ties might not be needed then. Or would it be prudent to do both?

 

[Stevers]

do you think it could still be a failed bressummer even though the window sills are level horizontally?

Oooops, I saw that note, but then misinterpreted the arrows drawn on the photos!

Another possibility is that the roof has spread, and that would explain why the ceiling on the top floor has dropped. There is certainly scope for this to happen on a 'dropped' ceiling. Rather than the pillar moving in, has the outside of the cills moved out? How plumb are the walls and other 'vertical' features up there?

 

[Cubist]

'Forgive me, but this is a potential minefield of contractual obligations and responsibilities that need to be thoroughly understood before you commission any works. You could, without realising it expose yourself significant financial loss and also to legal proceedings in court.' what are the issues you would foresee here?

Its difficult to say without reference to the various contracts but one area of concern would be the ownership the buildings Freehold and that person/entities rights and obligations to the leaseholders and vice-versa.

Do you think the works to stabilise the movement could be quite straight forward?

No. If its a problem with the bressumer as seems likely then both you and the leaseholder for the First Floor flat would be directly and significantly affected. If the problems were to be 'roof spread' then the parties involved could include all the leaseholders and the Freeholder from a payment and authorisation perspective but the brunt of the work may affect just yourself.

The owner of the ground floor flat is currently in the process of selling and I have considered purchasing it myself in order to streamline any future works that need doing and to make sure the building is treated as a whole. But not sure if that would just be an even bigger (doubly expensive) responsibility as I would be paying for all the works myself then rather than 50/50? There are a number of expensive issues that need to be dealt with, like the roof will need redoing in the next 10 years and the chimney needs work, it has terrible cracked render along the whole side of the building. Perhaps it would not be the best investment. The ground floor flat seems to be very damp too though the owner says they did a damp proof course. I thought it might mean I would be able to protect my flat above better by purchasing below and tackling the whole thing as one.

On the surface that may suggest that you're in a strong bargaining position to get a good deal but as you rightly point out the purchase would bring with it a host of new financial obligations that would need to be thoroughly understood. If you are serious get a good solicitor sooner rather than later.

 

[Stevers]

I'm baffled now, as in the cold light of day one of the pictures is annotated that cills and floor slope towards the middle which makes my first response seem reasonable. I'm not sure how this could be consistent with the cills being level, except of course that if the cills are at the centre of a long slightly sagging bresummer, they might well might drop vertically together supported by eachother.

Regardless of what the cills are doing I take that there is still deflection that has disrupted the brickwork and floor?

It's a very ambitious roof structure that could only be weakly restrained at the wall plates by the rafter legs and hip timbers, so I can still see scope for that spreading, although at least the disruption to finishes looks fairly minor. A spreading roof could be the cause behind your observation that the cills have rotated outwards.

 

[Cubist]

I'm baffled now, as in the cold light of day one of the pictures is annotated that cills and floor slope towards the middle which makes my first response seem reasonable. I'm not sure how this could be consistent with the cills being level, except of course that if the cills are at the centre of a long slightly sagging bresummer, they might well might drop vertically together supported by eachother.

Regardless of what the cills are doing I take that there is still deflection that has disrupted the brickwork and floor?

It's a very ambitious roof structure that could only be weakly restrained at the wall plates by the rafter legs and hip timbers, so I can still see scope for that spreading, although at least the disruption to finishes looks fairly minor. A spreading roof could be the cause behind your observation that the cills have rotated outwards.

I have a sneaky feeling that what we are seeing is a partial failure of the bresummer embedded in the external wall that was originally used to carry the superstructure of the bay roof below and the joists of the floor indoors for the 2nd floor flat above, and of course the ceiling of the 1st floor flat below. Had the bresummer rotted out near its centre line the internal floor might drop as it seems to have done, the brickwork immediately above could have dropped fractionally to induce the observed cracks and its possible that the bays roof structure might survive largely unaffected. The very narrow spacing between the 2nd Floor windows might also induce lateral forces in the external wall to prevent any drop of the window cills externally and internally. I am also thinking that roof spread would push out elements of the walls near the eaves which should be fairly obvious both inside and outdoors. This rationale seems to work on the basis of what's known at present but my logic has proven wrong too often in the past and I'm still concerned we might be looking at several problems with different causes rather than just one root with several effects.