Potential Cellar Danger?

[Malfisher]

Hello All

I have read a considerable amount of topics concerning cellars here already.
I have a specific question which may well have not been covered, well I couldnt find it anyway.
We have a room sized cellar which is damp, but not too bad. There are damp patches on the wall which is the street facing wall where the window is. There is plenty of ventillation in the cellar, and there has never been any standing water in the 22 years we have been here. The floor is brick, the cellar is origional never having been tanked ect. Temperature in the current cold weather is around 13 degrees, when left unheated.

I am currently using a dehumidifier and humidity seems to be at around 50%. I also use a halogen heater for warmth, this is ok, but I want to fit a radiator connected to our existing heating system. My wife raised a concern that fitting a radiator may well dry the walls out too quickly, and potentially cause them to crack, and all that goes with that scenario! I must admit I know nothing of this type of thing, but hand on heart could not say to her, it wont happen!

Is there any likelihood of this happening? I want to fit the radiator under the cellar window, where there is a constant stream of air that comes in via the extractor fan. In this way, I would hope that the warm air would be distributed around the room. I also have ventillated the old coal chute with a waterproofed manhole cover which allowas air in, but is sealed from all water ingress. The cellar door has a large gap at the bottom to also aid vintillation. And the central heating pipes are on the cellar stairway.

All advice welcomed, thanks you.

Malc.

 

[DaveBrigg]

Hi Malc. Welcome to the forum.
What is your reason for drying out the cellar? Do you want to turn it into a living space, or just somewhere for dry storage? Is the damp causing damage, for example causing woodwork to rot?
You have two problems as far as I can see. One is that as fast as you dry out the walls, more damp will be drawn in from outside. Since your cellar has not been waterproofed in any way, the brickwork will be continually affected by the damp in the ground. In effect, your dehumidifier is trying to dry out a few cubic metres of the street outside.
The second issue is that, as you have realised, you need good ventilation. Unfortunately this means that most of the heat you put into the room very quickly leaves.
On the positive side, I don't think that the wall will collapse if you manage to dry it out, although woodwork may shrink and crack, especially if it experiences unusual changes in temperature. If the damp is only on one wall, dry-lining may be an option, as long as you ensure that the damp wall still has adequate ventilation.

 

[Lime]

My feeling is that it would be a waste of heat if it all escapes.
What is the purpose in heating the cellar anyway?
My experience of heated cellars, particularly damp ones, is that the warm smell of damp can get into the rest of the house.
As for cracking walls, anything is possible but I think unlikely unless the heating was too intense or you have reason to suspect it may happen.
Another thing to consider is that moist warm air going into colder areas can cause condensation elsewhere so you might just be moving the damp around.
If after 22 years to your knowledge it has remained damp, heating the cellar will just produce warm damp IMO.
.. and no, I wouldn't tank it.

 

[middi]

If kilns and chimneys are built out of bricks and do the job without cracking I doubt that a bit of heat in a damp cellar will crack the masonary. You should be more worried about pumping heat in a well ventilated space and wasting it.

 

[Malfisher]

Hello Dave

The cellar is a small hobby workshop, and when I say damp, it's not heavilly damp, theres never been any water in the place. And although the place is pleasant enough, warmer would be nicer still, and also better yet the radiator would be on automatically with the central heating, instead of having to wait for the electric heater to warm the place up. Furthermore the radiator being part of the existing system would likely also be more economical than running an additional heater. Im also not greatly concerned over heat loss, comfort in life means more to me than penny pinching.

There is no damage to woodwork ect, the floor was half renewed when we first moved in 22 years ago, and the new half is still as new, and the origional half is still in very good condition. For about 15 years the place was actually sealed up and as a consequence did go quite damp. But when we opened the brickwork that builders had put over the window and the coal schute, that improved matters greatly. In fact we didnt even know there was a window, and the sort of hole in the path outside, was actually full to the top of the grid!

I dont think the wall would collapse myself either, but I suppose have to get an expert answer, not just an opinion, as my wife owns the house just as much as I do, and she thinks it could! What type of a person would know this stuff for sure? Who are cellar experts? I was at a loss who to ask, is it a plumber/heating engineer, builder, civil engineer? It's such an odd thing. I have mates in the building but it's beyond their knowledge, though one bloke who is a brickie 3 doors down tanked his and it's bone dry now! Maybe the local council has such people? Then maybe not, round our way they just seem expert in anything bar wasting money!

Cheers
Malc.

 

[worms]

humidity seems to be at around 50%

Is that damp?! Most rooms in my house work around 60-65% but seem quite comfortable and don't show signs of mould growth.

 

[Malfisher]

humidity seems to be at around 50%

Is that damp?! Most rooms in my house work around 60-65% but seem quite comfortable and don't show signs of mould growth.

Like I said, the cellar is not too bad. But there are some damp patches on the wall and the floor. The De-Humidifier switched itself off at 50% a few days ago, thats why I included that info. But it starts back up again as damp enters.

 

[Flyfisher]

If you want a professional opinion then I guess you need a structural engineer.

If you want a non-professional opinion then I wouldn't worry about it. I agree with DaveBrigg that you'll never completely dry out the walls until you've turned the surrounding landmass into a parched desert! As a workshop environment I'm sure it'll be fine, just add sufficient heat to make it comfortable to work in. But ensure adequate ventilation to control the warmer air that will pick up more moisture than cooler air and keep an eye open for any condensation in the cooler nooks and crannies.

 

[Haresy77]

Hi Malfisher,

I'm very intersted in cellars as I have my own which I've always fancied converting into a habitable space. You'll get very mixed responses on here about the pros and cons of doing major alterations to a cellar with the intention of achieving something habitable. The point about the dehumidifier is spot on, if you can set it to a higher humidity i.e 65% this might not be so such a drastic drying out and with your ventilation should be fine. I don't fully understand the point about letting out the heat. its generally accpeted that if you live in an old house you generally get the drafts and heat loss that comes with it - but this all helps to keep the place ventilated and dry!

I wouldn't worry about the walls cracking. I'm no expert but for that to happen you'd probably have to pull a reservoir full of water through the walls and dry the land out so much that your house subsides.

Blimey - we all love our cellars but wouldn't it be nice to take full advantage of the space - especially with growing families etc. Is it really a no no to take the plunge and get them tanked / dry lined with modern and proven methods? Oops, did I say "modern" - sorry.

 

[Malfisher]

Hello Haresay 77

I always wanted a cellar since I was a kid, and very often we would go to a freinds uncle's house, which had a cellar around the same size as my own is now. And thought it was a great adventure to go down there with a Price's Nightlight apiece! Also my own Gran had one, that was very dark and used only for coal ect as was the old way. This one we have is rather nice, it does not smell of damp at all, it did when I first addressed the ventillation, but soon after the odour was gone. I think old houses rely on drafts to keep them right.

I really think my wife is paniking over nowt, but I have to examine this as much as possible, just in case she is right!

I am going to lower the setting on the dehumidifier, and also have made the gap at the bottom of the ceallr door 2 inches. This is of great benefit to the ventialltion. I did an experiment with a halogen heater yesterday, popped it in front of the window vent, and and ran it for about 7 hours on 3 bars. The cellar stayed lovely and warm at around 20 degrees, in spite of how cold the day was, and the fact that the wind was blowing in a direction to make it come through the vent quite hard. Furhtermore, the heat actually came through the floor of the front room, and to a lesser extent the cellar door and thus contributed to the overall warmth of the house!

Cheers
Malc.

 

[Lime]

I suppose I'm generally against making a cellar something it isn't i.e. living space.
Cellars (not basements, they're different things) were used to gain storage space for coal, wine and sometimes meat.
The heating of houses with fires in most rooms required large storage areas and cellars were ideal.
My view is supported by all the cellars I've seen in the past where an attempt has been made to transform them into rooms to live in.
Carpets get damp eventually, wood often has mould on it and furnishings are damp generally.
Walls don't stay clean and white (?) for long and there's always some damp, no matter how it is heated.
You are always aware that you are living in a cellar.
It is only when you live in a cellar (and I did as a teenager. It was my electronic workshop) do you notice the day to day changes that occur.
Temperatures in unheated cellars rarely alter much but heating tends to make things quite damp.
The walls never warm up like in the house above.
Air circulation is a funny old thing and in cellars, even with a force nine gale blowing through it, there will be some "dead" areas where damp will occur.
I have never seen a cellar successfully transformed that stayed that way for long.

 

[Nemesis]

Is it really a no no to take the plunge and get them tanked / dry lined with modern and proven methods?

Expand = what is modern and proven?

 

[Malfisher]

Just to make a couple of points clear that may not be from what Ive posted so far;
We are not after making a living space, it is a workshop.
we are not trying to completely dry the place out, the dehumidifier is just for the air, and the heat for comfort whilst working there.

In fact, the worry of my wife was that the wall might dry out and thus crack!

Cheers
malc.

 

[Lime]

Yes, I was replying to Haresy77 really.
Perhaps you could strike a compromise with your wife and plumb in a fan convector.
They radiate less heat directly into the wall compared to a standard radiator.

 

[Haresy77]

The only point of reference I have are the numerous websites which claim to be able to provide dry cellars using the dimpled membrane, sump pumps and ventilation systems. Thousands of properties have had the work done and I can't belive they all fail. I live near Cheltenahm and many people live in converted cellars. I can understand the scepticisim because no two cellars will share the same conditions and I suppose if you've seen one fail then I suppose that would make you cautious.

Thanks for the insight Lime. The increased dampness when introducing heat is an intereseting one which I hadn't appreciated.