Possible woodworm?

[snazzle4405]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to posting here, and I must say i've found reading through many of contributions on various topics via discussion forum to be very helpful. So I though I'd post.

I live in an old cottage, which is being sympathetically restored. I'm wondering if you could help me to correctly identify what is going on with the beam pictured below. Looks like an infestation of some sort but not entirely sure it's woodworm. The black 'foliage' is an organic matter attached to the wood. Black mold spores possibly or a fungus? Historical evidence of woodboring beetle- yes. Any ideas?

Thanks .

 

[Matt Green]

That is a black pin mould. Nothing to worry about in that quantity or location.

 

[Toby Newell]

+++ and he is the man

 

[Toby Newell]

and thanks for the proper photos, makes a change, I can see the shallow depth of field...

 

[snazzle4405]

Thanks so much to you both. What would you suggest is the best way to get rid of it? We are yet to sand and preserve this beam. Glad it's not something horrifyingly concerning.

 

[Kearn]

Thanks so much to you both. What would you suggest is the best way to get rid of it? We are yet to sand and preserve this beam. Glad it's not something horrifyingly concerning.

Think hard about sanding / preserving, the first will likely do more damage than good, taking away patina and allowing any historic wormholes to become the surface; and the second isn’t required.

Looks like a decent amount of lime wash still in place, why not just continue to top it up…

 

[Toby Newell]

Think hard about sanding / preserving, the first will likely do more damage than good, taking away patina and allowing any historic wormholes to become the surface; and the second isn’t required.

Looks like a decent amount of lime wash still in place, why not just continue to top it up…

To be pedantic, as someone who has sanded hundreds of meters of beams, (restored and conserved thousands of sqm of timber) it is a matter of perspective. At present the 'patina' cannot be seen, unless you include the substrate coating as 'patina' which you are entitled to do. Also. Removing the coating to expose the natural wood surface could be said as simply exposing the 'patina'. This will likely be white and mottled. Also. Sanding this will expose the aged wood, worm galleries et al, this, many people, many restorers and conservators (me included) would also refer to as the 'patina' (of the actual wood) The beam looks several hundred years old, you are unlikely to remove all the patina via sanding as the timber will likely be chocolate brown all the way through (if oak) and the medullary rays will have oxidised and darkened. Shellacking and waxing this might, to some, enhance this patina, by showing off these colour changes that only happen after an extended time. One could further argue that until exposed, the patina is only to be guessed at and is thus more aptly Shroedingers patina... (there could be a new bit of timber or filler underneath, ask me how I know...)

Technically plaster isn't patina, it's plaster, just like if you gaffa taped a plastic bag over the top it isn't patina, it's a plastic bag, but you are free to interpret as such if your understanding of 'patina' = anything that has occured over time to the substrate, hence the inverted commas.

Having said all that. The best way to preserve it, is to very lightly brush it and wash it with a mold cleaner or bleach solution to remove the mold, and as Kearn suggests, leave it alone.

It looks as if it has survived several centuries with no sanding or no preserving. People ask me all the time how to preserve their old wood as they hear old wives tales about wood requiring 'nourishment'. Interior (solid) timber that is also not exposed to direct sunlight requires zero nourishment. A relatively stable heat and humidity that is not excessively damp is all that is required.

 

[Toby Newell]

To continue, as I find it interesting for example, you should do what makes you happy. People argue all the time about what you should and shouldn't do. I sanded the lime and bitumin off the hearth beam of Rob Tavendale, the man who started this forum, shellacked and waxed it. After careful inspection, (and before sanding) I was thrilled to find warding marks, which I carefully worked around. So patina is subjective as is how much you alter it, or expose.

I find the arbitary arrogance of the listing laws to be philosophically amusing. If your Georgian property was listed in 1970, by which time a large aluminium crital window had been installed in the Kitchen, in place of the Georgian, Flemish molded original sash, you cannot remove it, because, as the listing rules state, this 'is a record of the history of the property'. Which is kool and the gang.

But. If you cannot make any further changes, then you are stopping any further 'recording of history', it's as if at the time of the listing, the clock stops and all subsequent events are deemed null and void. Fast forward another 200 years and we only have a 'record' for half of the buildings' existence.

Patina is a bit like that. We choose what level we want and go with that. In general I go to extreme lengths to preserve patina, the less patina you have, the more careful you need to be.

 

[Kearn]

To be pedantic, as someone who has sanded hundreds of meters of beams, (restored and conserved thousands of sqm of timber) it is a matter of perspective. At present the 'patina' cannot be seen, unless you include the substrate coating as 'patina' which you are entitled to do. Also. Removing the coating to expose the natural wood surface could be said as simply exposing the 'patina'. This will likely be white and mottled. Also. Sanding this will expose the aged wood, worm galleries et al, this, many people, many restorers and conservators (me included) would also refer to as the 'patina' (of the actual wood) The beam looks several hundred years old, you are unlikely to remove all the patina via sanding as the timber will likely be chocolate brown all the way through (if oak) and the medullary rays will have oxidised and darkened. Shellacking and waxing this might, to some, enhance this patina, by showing off these colour changes that only happen after an extended time. One could further argue that until exposed, the patina is only to be guessed at and is thus more aptly Shroedingers patina... (there could be a new bit of timber or filler underneath, ask me how I know...)

Technically plaster isn't patina, it's plaster, just like if you gaffa taped a plastic bag over the top it isn't patina, it's a plastic bag, but you are free to interpret as such if your understanding of 'patina' = anything that has occured over time to the substrate, hence the inverted commas.

Having said all that. The best way to preserve it, is to very lightly brush it and wash it with a mold cleaner or bleach solution to remove the mold, and as Kearn suggests, leave it alone.

It looks as if it has survived several centuries with no sanding or no preserving. People ask me all the time how to preserve their old wood as they hear old wives tales about wood requiring 'nourishment'. Interior (solid) timber that is also not exposed to direct sunlight requires zero nourishment. A relatively stable heat and humidity that is not excessively damp is all that is required.

Ha! Too late at night for a well thought out reply from me Toby, but I agree it’s an inappropriately used, loosely understood term. Seems to potentially have its origins in metal, and specifically that lovely green tinge that appears on copper. Later adopted to describe something more broadly where the appearance improves with age/use. For me that could include the functional limewash slapped on every year, possibly from the start. But, for others I concede it could also therefore include the nasty modern gloss or similar… perspective depends on your point in time I guess.
However, an originally limewashed timber was so for a reason, so personally it always makes me pause to consider reasons for stripping back more naked than it may have ever been intended. Seen too many people say they’ve uncovered lovely feature brick/rubble stone internal walls to leave on show. Then ask about how to choose a breathable sealant as they don’t like dust!

What would possibly worry me more is the potentially soft looking surface of the wood and how little fight that may put up under abrasion. Then the timber is going further back beyond where the original carpenter chose to finish its form.

Now. The catch all nature of the very rushed and uncalculated listing process last century and freezing others’ mistakes/choosing what is ‘historic’ … well that’s a whole different topic!!

 

[Toby Newell]

Ha! Too late at night for a well thought out reply from me Toby, but I agree it’s an inappropriately used, loosely understood term. Seems to potentially have its origins in metal, and specifically that lovely green tinge that appears on copper. Later adopted to describe something more broadly where the appearance improves with age/use. For me that could include the functional limewash slapped on every year, possibly from the start. But, for others I concede it could also therefore include the nasty modern gloss or similar… perspective depends on your point in time I guess.
However, an originally limewashed timber was so for a reason, so personally it always makes me pause to consider reasons for stripping back more naked than it may have ever been intended. Seen too many people say they’ve uncovered lovely feature brick/rubble stone internal walls to leave on show. Then ask about how to choose a breathable sealant as they don’t like dust!

What would possibly worry me more is the potentially soft looking surface of the wood and how little fight that may put up under abrasion. Then the timber is going further back beyond where the original carpenter chose to finish its form.

Now. The catch all nature of the very rushed and uncalculated listing process last century and freezing others’ mistakes/choosing what is ‘historic’ … well that’s a whole different topic!!

Incase you missed it, apart from the rant about what timber patination actually is, I agreed with you 100% that the best way (very often) to preserve timber joist, is to leave it alone.

It is fair to say there are several layers of patination, much like an onion, but that it is usually referred to mean the actual colours, marks and patterns on the surface of the timber sans thick coatings. I actually coined the term '3D patination' to refer to the undulation of old floor boards that I preserve via hand sanding techniques, this seems less clumsy than 'historically aged topography'. I'm not sure I had a point, if I did it might of been there are several layers of patina and that you simply choose to stop at one, before you totally run out of onion...

 

[Kearn]

Incase you missed it, apart from the rant about what timber patination actually is, I agreed with you 100% that the best way (very often) to preserve timber joist, is to leave it alone.

It is fair to say there are several layers of patination, much like an onion, but that it is usually referred to mean the actual colours, marks and patterns on the surface of the timber sans thick coatings. I actually coined the term '3D patination' to refer to the undulation of old floor boards that I preserve via hand sanding techniques, this seems less clumsy than 'historically aged topography'. I'm not sure I had a point, if I did it might of been there are several layers of patina and that you simply choose to stop at one, before you totally run out of onion...

Agreed, I spotted that!
Was as much debating with myself - it’s a word that gets much used presumably without enough understanding of its etymology, which prompted me to do a bit of digging… as I fell into that camp, when what I really meant was to be careful of removing what looks like possibly very soft surface timber under the line wash.

Equally, I suppose by its very evolving usage as a word, it now means something different than its dictionary definition… which can’t mean much in a day and age where firstly there is a ‘word of the year’ award, and worse when the winning ‘word’ is rizz

Oxford Word of the Year 2023 | Oxford Languages

After more than 32,000 votes, and a team of language experts, the Oxford Word of the Year 2023 is finally here! Learn more about the this year's winner.

languages.oup.com

 

[Toby Newell]

I think these days patina means anything you like really, regarding 'stuff that has occurred' to a 'thing' over time that reflects the passage of time... one could prosaically talk about the patina of a restaurant, a person, a cliff, or an institution. It's quite a broad and descriptive word, I like it.

It's normally something that has demonstrably changed the appearance, (morphology, colour, texture) of the actual substrate itself, although coatings do affect the patina, but mostly if they are translucent or semi translucent and so you can see the object (substrate) underneath. Originally meant to describe the weathering of metals, notably bronzes, and thence the artificial imitation of such, it was adopted by the antiques trade to include the wear marks, colour and sheen changes that wooden items take on over time.

Thus a painted bit of wood (if relatively flat and with no holes or other obvious signs of age) doesn't show a patina, it shows paint... if one were to strip the paint off and note that the wood had changed colour from original and worm holes and nail holes were thus exposed, then that would be the patina.

The separate debate about whether to strip and expose or leave alone is another altogether and largely comes down to aesthetic considerations, scraping or sanding limewash off a beam is not going to materially damage it, I have hacked off inches of friable sapwood to get back to a stable heart grain to aid in fitting noggins for example to centuries old beams, engineering wise, friable sapwood has the mechanical properties of a crunchie bar and so you are not creating a structural issue.

As to whether you prefer a messy, moldy, mottled small section of timber, or to actually see the beauty of the wood underneath is purely a personal, aesthetic concern.

The OP asked what they need to do to 'preserve' the timber, as sanding would necessarily remove some timber and have no effect on conservation, the best preservation technique would still be to do nothing.

I like the look on people's faces when they get me in to quote to sand a floor and tell me 'we want it to look very traditional' to which I reply, 'you mean paint a two foot asphaltum black border around the edge and put a large rug in the middle?'

They smile and then reply, ok, not THAT traditional...

 

[Toby Newell]

Just for fun, may I add...

Painted:




Original Patina:



Painted:



Original patina:





Admittedly it does nothing to 'preserve' the timber, the paint was doing that just fine but I think a good argument could be made that removing the paint shows the passage of time more. My cardinal rule is to always show off more patina, not less. Any process I do has to enhance the look and appearance of age, not diminish it. This is the White House in Chipstead High Street (lovely street) I think it was 1623. A little elbow grease, scraping, sanding, shellac and beeswax later.

Pretty sure when the beam has morphed into a giant boomerang, there are ten thousand worm holes, dozens of shakes, the heart grain has gone dark chocolate with a crema coloured sapwood the oak doesn't mind. If it could speak, it might of said it felt a slight tickle...

 

[Kearn]

This one here is a WIP - should be focussing my time elsewhere, but can never resist investigating a fireplace. Nothing more than a quick tickle with a Bahco for now just to test. Original face of this is very smooth, almost as if previously sanded - we did trial a small patch of low level soft media blasting, while it worked it lifted the grain ever so slightly so I’ll be doing this by hand. Think it’s also elm, and the only lintel we have that’s received the apotropaic treatment. Thankfully the black coatings we have are a very dry brittle surface finish, but like blackboard paint so very easy to remove and non penetrating.

 

[Toby Newell]

What is a WIP? (Work in progress?) Some faces were smooth, (the did have scrapers btw lol... see my website you will find les raboteurs de parquet by Caillebotte on there somewhere, you think Louis XIV stood for rough as a bears ass woodwork just because sanders hadn't been invented yet? Ok, so they shat in buckets in the corridors, but the buckets were gold plated, I mean, the man had standards) You can check with a bright light for tell tale pigtails of any sanding) yours has been clobbered by something (or has it...?) often they are hacked with an adze to aid bonding of plaster on top. Looks quite old, would be nice if it is elm, impossible to say now. You have some nice shakes and a lovely old hand made metal strap. Knots look a bit big for elm but grain does look a bit 'elmy'. Easy to see if you scrape the edge, old elm sapwood is same colour as heartgrain, if oak will be much lighter still. I have done thousands of hours of scraping, there is a knack to it. I would use a 50mm or 75mm carbide scraper not the 625 triangle, you need two hands and to put all of your weight into it, if it isn't incredibly hard work, you aren't doing it right. I finish up with a Festool ETS EC150 and sometimes a RO90 for the edges, mostly scraping. BUT. I would NOT advise that at this time.

Do a light scrape like you've done first, and check for cut warding marks, hardly ever find them, think Rob Tavendales' hearth beam was one of the only times I have found them, although I have seen burn marks a few times. I found them at sides, they look like a 'w' or 'v' or 'wv' or simply two or three parallel lines. I think you might actually have some. Also you appear to have burn marks, the jury is out as to whether these are in fact candle marks or specific taper burn marks meant to ward off evil spirits. The black teardrop shapes could be apotropaic burn marks. They look too close together, too low on the beam and I don't see any holes for a candle holder spike and why would you need several candles above a fire? Surely a fire is bright enough and would melt the beeswax or tallow candles?

In this instance your somewhat weedy scraping efforts may have been a distinct advantage (as was you giving up on blinkin' blasting for flips sake) I think that beam may be chock full of apotropaic marks. Presumably you have good luck. I mean I am on here and I just told you all this, so obviously they DO work...

I would continue as you have been, scraping gently only the black away, then post more photos. Ideally you would want to sand around the marks carefully with a Festool RO90 or similar, then very gently clean up the marks by hand.

You can check if the teardrop shapes are warding marks by gently scraping away and seeing if there is charring underneath, if not then they are just bruises from a big clobber with a hammer. (They look like burn marks) I think saying I am excited would be an overstatement, but saying I am quite interested would conversely be an understatement.

Media blasting? Pffft. I don't know what to say that I haven't said previously. Other than please no. If they are burn marks you want to keep some of the charring to show what they are, blasting would remove some of that. I have managed to strip thousands of metres of timber over three decades without ever using a 'blasting' technique even once and I have done reasonably ok without it.

It is possible this would be a very exciting diversion, I bet you are glad you posted this before you ahem, blasted the damn thing...

 

[Toby Newell]

May I continue?

(legato) Paiiint:




(Staccato) Patina!:

(with possible, previously unseen apotropaic burn marks)



Paint:



Patina:



(With possible burnt apotropaic marks and free angel, while stocks last...)



And to all quarry tiles lovers (this was hard work!)

Ccccement:



...dirt and soot:



Patina! :






(Oak and quarry tiles 1407 to 1550, Suffolk fyi)

 

[Toby Newell]

View attachment 12057
This one here is a WIP - should be focussing my time elsewhere, but can never resist investigating a fireplace. Nothing more than a quick tickle with a Bahco for now just to test. Original face of this is very smooth, almost as if previously sanded - we did trial a small patch of low level soft media blasting, while it worked it lifted the grain ever so slightly so I’ll be doing this by hand. Think it’s also elm, and the only lintel we have that’s received the apotropaic treatment. Thankfully the black coatings we have are a very dry brittle surface finish, but like blackboard paint so very easy to remove and non penetrating.

But in your case Kearn, I think the preservation of any possible apotropaic marks trumps the need to show off the patina, the wood underneath is incredibly beautiful but the history of the marks supersedes this, you can do both, you will just have to take a bit of extra time and care. Looks like a wonderfully interesting beam, please keep us posted on progress with plenty of pics thank you.

 

[Toby Newell]

It could, of course, just be a trick of the scraping and that the darker coating is left in the bruised areas, but you never know, you can see photos of what the burn marks look like. The cut marks really look like Freddy Krueger slashes or very fine knife like cuts.

 

[Kearn]

But in your case Kearn, I think the preservation of any possible apotropaic marks trumps the need to show off the patina, the wood underneath is incredibly beautiful but the history of the marks supersedes this, you can do both, you will just have to take a bit of extra time and care. Looks like a wonderfully interesting beam, please keep us posted on progress with plenty of pics thank you.

This one has 14 apotropaic burn marks - I don’t buy the accidental taper burn theory, have read research on folks trying that method and these are not accidental or quick to produce. Plus the locations of these and others I’ve found show they were intentional, often in places no taper could exist and done when the oak was green, before drying and splitting. They are charred.

I would never go back further than this here, it’s less weedy than intentionally gentle! I’ve no desire to make the beam look shiny and smooth, just to get the modern muck off and show its past life.
This place is a bit of a living history and has a lot of scars of its past lives over the past 500+ years… Bahco 665 is my good friend, plus I’ll lightly hand sand after if required… sensitive blasting will be ok on the main structure, it’s already very weathered and has tales to tell from its functional use - likely a wool barn originally, 1500s, possibly a touch earlier. Then converted to a dwelling in the early 1600s.

The only showy timber we have is from this phase - some nice mouldings on the hall summer beams and simple, deep chamfers with a range of stops on all the other spines. These deserve the manual treatment for sure and that was always the plan. Other fires are stone. Interestingly, the only warding marks I’ve found so far, are this heavily marked fireplace and a door jamb in this room also. Two stone fireplaces have nothing, so presumably they weren’t so scared at that stage …!

I don’t think I have Marion marks though, there are quite a few straight cuts, they’re intentional, but they are the type that appear more random. It hasn’t been adzed, or keyed for plaster, but it does have some areas where it’s been beaten up, and there are round impression marks from blows. It’s certainly a busy piece of timber visually! It’s the fireplace in the service end, probably added late 1600/early 1700s… it’s a puzzling one at the moment as it’s evolved a lot and butts onto/into the main monstrous central stack, but not very nearly at all. We’ll learn more when we open it up and repair… I don’t think it would have been a grand or well finished fireplace, this has always been a functional room - outdoor limestone floor inside, buttery, dairy at some stage etc