Pointing issue

[DavePimlott]

Hi

We purchased our property last December which dates back to the 1550s . We paid for a full survey at a great cost and a subsequent visit from our local conservation officer (as it is Grade II) has brought up the fact that the whole house has been repointed in cement rather than lime based mortar. This has been backed up by a local recommended builder who has advised that as it is soft brick, the mortar needs to be softer to allow the bricks to breathe or you will get corrosion - which is already evident.

We have contacted the surveyor who has stated that we are caught between the devil and the .. sea as the builder and conservation oficer will always want to see original materials and as cement was not around at the time it was built, lime was used. Lime only allowed the bricks to move which should not be happening after all this time so there would be no reason not to have used it.

Any advice please? We have been told to get a seperate opinion but looking on line, it appears that our surveyor may be trouble as this would be up to 12 months work (for one man) at an estimated cost of £60k!!

Thanks in advance
Dave

 

[Ian Bond]

Lime mortars are usually softer than the the masonry or brick, so will accommodate small amounts of movement without causing the bricks to crack. The lime mortar is also breathable, and will help to keep your walls dry. The pointing is supposed to be a sacrificial element - much cheaper to replace the mortar than the expensive bricks.

There's more info here, and plenty on this site in the Advice, Articles section and in the discussion forum.

http://www.chalkhill-lime.co.uk/instructional.html

My stone house has been cement pointed - luckily they did a poor job, and did not rake out the joints properly, just buttering on a thin layer of mortar, which is now falling off by itself in places.

The key is not to cause more (irreversible) damage trying to remove the cement. There are some heart-breaking stories on the forum involving the careless use of angle grinders etc.

I'd be tempted to investigate a small, inconspicuous area and see how they've tackled this pointing - is it a deep, hard to remove cement job or a skim like mine?

Maybe you can spread the work over a number of years, one elevation at a time - they've not done the whole house have they?

Can't help with prices as I can only afford to do everything myself, but I'm sure a kind person will be along to reassure you that £60K is on the steep side.

 

[inwood]

Re-pointing (assuming as Ian states that the cement pointing isn't raked into the joints) is easy to do yourself and personally I find it very theraputic. I've seen prices from about £20/sqm to £50/sqm. This article from the Independent:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20051123/ai_n15845941
suggests about £35/sqm which seems reasonable.

On that basis and given your quote you should have about 1700 sqm's which seems like an awfully large house!

I would suggest working out the square metreage and speak to your conservation officer for a list of conservation contractors in your area. They normally have a list but won't recommend any. You could then give several a call and get some estimates based on repointing with lime putty or an NHL 1 hydraulic lime (or lime putty gauged with metastar). If the contractor really does conservation work they'll be familiar with these terms for the different types of lime. Using these terms really separates the conservationists from the modern builders (who normally respond with NHL what or yes I'll put some lime in with the cement when I mix it!).

 

[biffvernon]

12 months work (for one man) at an estimated cost of £60k!!

Nice earner! I'll do it for £55k.

 

[DaveBrigg]

There's a fascinating advert on the Independent web page recommended above. Follow the 'see in action' link on the company website http://www.quikpoint.com/ to see some of the fastest, and worst, repointing you're ever likely to come across. I guess it could be tidied up later.

 

[Ian Bond]

Yes, they do seem to be over-filling the joints a tad - perhaps they are demonstrating the power of the mortar gun. Is there a part 2 on how to clean it up?

However, If you persevere with Bob's 3 video clips on the Chalke Hill site instead, you'll see him using a mortar gun too (with a little more restraint), but also finishing the joints with a trowel then using a brush to compact it.

The video production quality is not broadcast standard, so some patience is required.

I wouldn't use a mortar gun myself, as I don't do pointing every day, so prefer to go slower with a small pointing tool and board. However, in more experienced hands I can see how the mortar gun would help get the pointing done that much more quickly.

What's more worrying on the Independent link, is statements like this:

What you should get for your money: chipping away of all the original masonry mortar, repointing with cement based mortar.

No wonder nearly everyone has their repointing done with cement.

 

[kevmiles1]

You will probably find that the cement repointing is only on the surface and that the joints havent been raked out to a depth of about 10mm and then repointed, if that is the case then removing it would not be difficult, you could do this yourself and therefore save yourself a considerable amount of money and then just have someone into repoint it with lime. You could also do each elevation starting with the worst or most exposed and do it over a period of a few years.
Regarding price if you raked it out yourself and dependant on what part of the country you are in (in London you would probably be looking at about £40.00 a square metre anywhere else about £20 plus scaffolding.
Unless your house is absolutely huge 60k sounds way over the top.

 

[Lime]

Hi

We purchased our property last December which dates back to the 1550s . We paid for a full survey at a great cost and a subsequent visit from our local conservation officer (as it is Grade II) has brought up the fact that the whole house has been repointed in cement rather than lime based mortar. This has been backed up by a local recommended builder who has advised that as it is soft brick, the mortar needs to be softer to allow the bricks to breathe or you will get corrosion - which is already evident.

We have contacted the surveyor who has stated that we are caught between the devil and the .. sea as the builder and conservation oficer will always want to see original materials and as cement was not around at the time it was built, lime was used. Lime only allowed the bricks to move which should not be happening after all this time so there would be no reason not to have used it.

Any advice please? We have been told to get a seperate opinion but looking on line, it appears that our surveyor may be trouble as this would be up to 12 months work (for one man) at an estimated cost of £60k!!

Thanks in advance
Dave

well, your surveyor wouldn't say anything else, would he?
Lime mortar was the original material and is still the material that should be used.
Your builder is quite correct.
The argument used by your surveyor is a false one.
Cement has been around since the Romans and brickwork built with lime mortar requires lime pointing.
Cement will prevent the bricks moving if they need to (and older buildings do still move sometimes with weather changes and no foundations) and prevent the mortar evaporating moisture trapped in the brickwork.

The fact that the surveyor did not bring the cement pointing to your attention suggests he lacks the proper experience with older properties.

 

[Pford75]

Agree with Lime on this....you could (depending on the content of your surveyors report) have a claim against the surveyor for the cost of the remedial works to repoint.

If you requested a survey noting 'all essential works' and the survey report does not exclude the pointing, you could in theory make a claim against the surveyors for the cost of the work. This is perhaps the reason that the surveyor is insisting that cement is fine.

As others have pointed out, 'soft' lime mortar fulfills two key functions:

1. It allows movement without cracking
2. It is breathable, whereas cement is not and could therefore result in damage to the stonework

If you are to pursue a claim against your surveyor, you need to decide this ASAP and allow them to rectify the problem (you will hit problems if you engage builders and then seek to reclaim costs). I would suggest a polite but firm enquiry with the surveyors firm initially...followed by a meeting with a solicitor if required.

 

[DavePimlott]

Thanks for all of your replies. There is about 330m2 of repointing needed doing so obviously £60k is way over the top. I will investigate further. We have tried a small section and luckily they have only racked out about 10mm and repointed so getting the cement out will not cause damage to the bricks.

Thanks again, guess our surveyor is going to get a call from our insurance company as luckily we are covered for this!