Pointing and noises!!

[cotegreen]

Having had a few previous questions answered very well on here, I need your advice again. We live in a 200 year old cottage (not listed) and someone previous to us has pointed up the outside (random stone) in cement. i am aware of the issues this causes and in recently renovating the house we had it plastered with Limelite internally ( again i know you will say i should of done it in proper lime however it came down to money and time). There is no problems with damp at all however the outside face of the house on the weather side is disintergrating quite badly in places.

My question is this, would you recommend me taking this cement out, the few areas that have come loose anyway looks like pretty good condittion lime mortar, which i guess somebody not knowing better thought was worn cement. If i leave it i guess its going to get worse, but i am likely to give myself problems by trying to remove whats there, the cement has been pointed up pretty badly anyway.?

finally as a completely seperate subject, i have recently started having problems with my water pipes. artound 0200 - 0300 every morning when no water is being used, we get a very loud knocking for a few hours from the water pipes. the only solution is to turn the stop cock off before we go to bed. This problem only arose about 6 weeks ago in conjunction with some work on a local main. the water board say it may be because we have an old lead pipe coming from the main to our house and this noise is passing up at night. has anybody heard of anything like this before. we are having a nightmare at night time with no water, or being woke up if we forget to turn water off. PLEASE HELP.

 

[Nemesis]

Limelite - oh well.

Modern and cement based.

 

[ian]

that bad eh?
http://www.tarmac.co.uk/cmspozament/LIMELITEHELPSRESTOREHISTORICHOUSE.aspx

 

[Nemesis]

We've already discussed this one on this site.

Limelite is a modern cement based plaster. It certainly has not the properties of traditional lime plaster.


The use of 'traditional' here:

1:1:6, cement: lime: sand plaster

is a bit of a misnomer.

'Though vast sums have gone into the renovation of old houses, in SPAB terms this has been a mixed blessing.So often this process has enrtiled everything the Socity opposes - stripping historic interiors; replacing ancient fabric that could have been repaired; the use od cement and hard plsters. Buildings have been saved - but we have lost so much of what made them special.'


Philip Venning in the latest edition of Cornerstone.

 

[MdB]

Regarding the pointing, how easy does the cement come off? If I'm careful mine comes off easily but I know others have said that it can be well stuck. Might be worth looking through some old threads as its a subject that has come up a number of times before. Pictures would be useful too if possible.

Regarding the water hammer, how high is your water pressure? Do you live at the bottom of a hill? If the stop cock is on max, do you get splashed when you turn the cold water tap on? Do you just crack open the stop cock so as to lower the water pressure? If so, then the solution is easy and cost me about £30 in bits. What you require is a pressure reduction valve which needs to be fitted straight after the stop cock if at all possible.

With high water pressure and a stop cock slight turned on, you end up with low pressure at full flow but still get the original high pressure at low flows. In particular, ball cock valves in your tanks when just shutting off will have to operate against the high pressure. A pressure pulse in the pipe, can release a small bit of water from the ball cock which in turn sends the pressure pulse back down again. In time a large oscillation can build up making the pipes move and bang. Our pipes made a large range of different noises at different times because of this.

With a pressure reduction valve (the same sort of valve as is used on gas except it is for water), you can turn the stop cock full on so you get full flow when you need it, however, on light flow the pressure doesn't rise too much and doesn't have the energy in it to start the oscillations. It certainly cured our problems instantly though we did have to rejig the ball cock valves to work at the lower pressures.

 

[cotegreen]

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Nemesis]

Regardless of why you used it, it is a modern cement based plaster. It isn't lime.

'Well known to all SPAB members...' how do you know?

I don't know how large your room was, but three grand sounds an incredible quote.

 

[ian]

Appologies. I should learn to google PPUK instead of the web. It was a "substance " I had not heard of before, being up to my eyes in haired putty coarse stuff for the last 9 years!

 

[Nemesis]

I note that a great deal of the post to which I replied was removed almost as soon as it was posted.

It did say that a plasterer well-known to all SPAB members recommended it, and the quote for one room of real lime was three grand.

That sounds an incredible sum, and I wonder how readily the name of any lime plasterers trips off the tongue of most SPAB members? Certainly it isn't something SPAB would recommend.

Just to repeat - limelite is modern cement based.

As far as pointing - if it comes off without damage then remove the cement, and repair with lime.

Possibly a little out of date now, but the picture illustrating this article here shows the damage which can be caused by cement pointing:

http://robinkent.com/articles_mortars.html

However, damage can also be caused by attempts to remove cement which is well stuck.

 

[cotegreen]

i removed my original repsonse because i had not read the all the postings especially the one which spoke about the water hammer.

I know the limelite scenario, what I was saying was that after speaking to a well known lime plasterer who actually runs courses on it now... for SPAB etc. ( I rang him to give me a quote on doing the work) he advised me that under my circumstances limelite was a good go between as I had cement pointing and it was not listed etc.

thank you for your help I will make inroads into taking the cement pointing out.

 

[Nemesis]

Well listing isn't the point really. Despite the name. it's not lime and isn't a good 'in between' solution. It's not a breathable, flexible covering like the real thing.

It's a modern hard finish. I don't know how the cost compares with modern gypsum.

It may do no harm, but it ain't lime!

 

[Gervase]

Three grand for one room? Cor, I dreams of jobs like that!
Seriously, unless that room is a vast ballroom with ornate cornicing and fancy mouldings, £3K is outrageous.
And Limelite is a bodge - it's pernicious stuff designed to help modern spreads and skimmers pretend they're doing traditional work. It has no place in an historic building, and any architect who specifies it should be ashamed of him/herself.

 

[Jon Maine]

Dont do it again or we will not talk to you!!

Listed, not the issue, historic yes. There are many important buildings which have importance historically with no listing.

Cement BAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!

It has its uses, not to many but not on or in your walls.

All joking aside Limelite is not the solution, it may be slightly more flexible than neat cement but will not be much more breathable. Sorry to tell you your spab plasterer wants his B******s branding as a traitor.

As for the water hammer, it would seem an outside influence is causing this, maybe a pressure regulating valve may help. However I would get on to the local water board and ask for someone with technical expertise for advice.

At least rip out all your pointing and replace it with a lime mortar mix.

 

[Carol]

I wonder if we should have a probationary period for new posters during which older posters are pleasant and encouraging and only gently suggest the 'right' way forward. Or we might scare them off into mad cementing episodes.

But I do agree about the Limelite!!

And please take the pointing out by hand not with a grinder.

 

[cotegreen]

thanks again, i have started taking the loose pieces of pointing out and will do it all by hand. the water hammer I have contacted the water board but will lift my bathroom floor in the meantime just to make sure nothing is loose. thanks for the help.

 

[Nemesis]

Can I point out that lime work should not be carried out when there is danger of frost?

So it may be a good idea to wait until spring to do the pointing, unless you live in a sheltered part of the country.

We certainly are having frost where I live.