Philistine builder

[JanieB]

i'm so bloody angry. Apart from the fact that I'm paying the bills, I'm really fed up with being ignored by my builder and having to get my son to insist that they do what I want.

The first one was the windows and doors. These were in the original spec that they signed up to as being wood. They tried to insist on upvc. Sorry, but in a 250 year old cottage! They tried several times to convince me that I'd be better off with them, no maintenance etc. I pointed out that the windows I already have have have been there since Georgian times with the occasional coat of paint. The life of upvc is about 30 years and somehow I think the occasional pot of paint is a lot cheaper than replacing my upvc windows every 30 years.

The reason for this post. When they took the plaster off the wall between the kitchen and the dining room, they exposed the original red brick arches that were over the doors and windows a couple of centuries ago. I thought they would look really good if they were exposed and included in the decor of the new kitchen as part of the history of the house. The arches are about 4 inches (sorry i don't do new money) above where the rsj is going. I went shopping and when I got back the arches had been hacked out for absolutely no reason that I can see.

 

[LadyArowana]

Oh dear, you need to fire these people and get a different builder.

 

[88v8]

It's a real downer, finding that you've employed the wrong builder. That sinking feeling.
Sympathy.
And now they've started, it will be a pain to get someone else to come and take over.
But if you're in a battle to get them to do what you want rather than what they want, I would let them go, especially if they're damaging the house.

And when you look for another, take references and go and look at their previous work.
That was a real eye-opener for me, when we had an extension built - people who talked the talk, but from their previous work obviously couldn't walk from here to the garden gate without leaving a trail of devastation behind them.

In getting rid of this builder, you may also have fun agreeing the 'value' of what they have already done.

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yep, fire them today. I had similar issues with my first set of builders and stuck with them as I felt a duty to my famikly to try and get things finished in a reasonable time. I have never stopped regretting not firing them on the first day, after the number of mistaked they made. You must get rid of them even if you have paid them some money up front!!!

 

[Flyfisher]

It's a real downer, finding that you've employed the wrong builder. That sinking feeling. . . . . . In getting rid of this builder, you may also have fun agreeing the 'value' of what they have already done.

A downer indeed, and a cue to relate my one and only similar experience:

Due to, er, slow progress with my DIY, it was decided (emphasis on 'it was' :wink: ) to have our main bathroom professionally fitted so it would be ready for our house guests last Christmas.

Planning began in June, so plenty of time, much helpful and friendly discussion with the bathroom company, emphasis on the house being listed so care needed, and stipulation that although the walls and floor were not straight and level, it was only the floor that was to be levelled by adding a false floor. All seemed well and good and a deposit was duly paid for work to begin in November.

They started a week late (minor alarm bell) but assured us they'd still finish before Christmas. Monday morning, two chaps turned up, measured up for materials and left (fair enough). Tuesday morning they started laying the false floor to level the significant fall of the original floor. I poked my head around the door mid-morning to discover them lifting all the original floorboards, which caused minor damage to the jettied ceiling below (major alarm bell) and had to explain that the plan was for the false floor to be fitted ON TOP of the existing floor and not to disturb the original boards. Much huffing and muttering but a quick call to their boss confirmed this and they spent the next few hours refitting the boards before starting again, meaning they finished late that day (more huffing and muttering). Oh well, I thought, that's the 'snag' for this job over and done with - onwards and upwards.

They arrived on Wednesday morning to continue and, again, I poked my head around the door mid-morning to discover that they were making all the walls straight and level with internal framing, which is not only not what was planned and was making the room significantly smaller in some places, and it's not a large room to start with (more major alarm bells!). Another call to their boss and it was decided he would come out the next day with the designer so everyone could review and agree precisely how the work should proceed, even though the drawings were pretty clear!

On Thursday, the boss and designer turn up alone. They confessed they had subcontracted the work because their own fitters were very busy in the run up to Christmas. Furthermore, the subcontractors had taken umbrage at being told what to do (!!!) and had refused to return. They were terribly apologetic, fully agreed that the work had not been acceptable and could now not guarantee finishing before Christmas but would put their own best fitters on the job in the new year and would offer a small discount as compensation. I said I would think about it.

On Friday, their MD contacted me and started to argue the toss - the fitters were only doing their job as they've always done it, the deposit is non-refundable because they've bought job-specific fixtures and fittings, it was my fault the fitters walked off the job, etc, etc. After a few seemingly futile email exchanges in which he threatened me with breach of contract and passing the matter to his solicitor, I politely offered him two choices:

1a - I would pay for the job-specific fixtures and fittings, but would only pay the cheaper price I could find elsewhere (about 20% less, which I would have done anyway for DIY)
1b - he would deliver them at no cost
1c - he would refund the balance of our deposit
1d - he would not charge for the false floor work . . .
1e - . . . for which I would overlook the damage to the original bathroom floor and jettied ceiling (which was actually quite superficial, but he didn't come out to see for himself!)

Or

2 - We would sue for all the costs incurred from his company's negligence in damaging the original floor and jettied ceiling of a GII* listed building, as well as for our deposit

I also pointed out that as the house was GII* listed, the repairs would need to involve the local council Historic Buildings Officer as well as English Heritage and that the repair method would likely involve traditional skills (e.g. lath & lime plastering) that he would not have within his company and would need to contract out to a specialist heritage building company etc - i.e. an altogether time-consuming and costly matter, as well as damaging to his company reputation.

Unsurprisingly, he chose the first option, despite moaning about how much time and money the whole matter had cost him (as if that was my problem!) and two days later our bathroom fittings were delivered along with a cheque for our deposit minus the discounted price of the fittings.

The ironic thing is that we would have probably accepted their offer of a small discount for not completing the job before Christmas, and it was the MD's attempt to push the blame onto me that made me dig my heels in.

Not that I particularly count this as a victory. The bathroom is still not finished (did I mention my DIY was rather slow ), the lovely sales lady/designer presumably was not paid her commission after a lot of work and the boss of the projects division probably got a rocket as well, so no winners really - and all because a couple of fitters couldn't read a drawing and didn't like being corrected when they made it up as they went along.

Still, at least the bathroom will eventually be finished exactly as we've planned it instead of being compromised forever.

 

[Penners]

2 - We would sue for all the costs incurred

Your F-i-L would have been proud of you!

 

[Flyfisher]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Although, he'd probably have been disappointed that I offered an alternative settlement option at all.

 

[MatthewC]

Janie

I am sorry for you - if you are to the north or east of Oxford I could perhaps recommend someone to you (according to the size of the job) - PM me.

FF - Well done! The problem was entirely theirs for sub-contracting without due care. In fact, they might always do this and usually get away with it. The builders on our church were excellent, but even so I have found (on both church and house) that it always pays to keep on top of what contractors are doing as you did. There are many "fixes" that aren't any good, like the use of some gunk on slates to glue them - it might work on new slates but it has no chance on reclaimed ones - it works just long enough for the roofers to off and away!

Matthew

 

[JanieB]

A meeting between myself, my son and my builder was very helpful. My son said that what mum wants mum gets as she is paying for it.

One of the problems is that until you hack off plaster or take down walls, you don't know what you will find. I'm trying to make my house work in this day and age whilst retaining its character and that sometimes means compromising.

The builders have agreed to take that on board and when the steels went in actually pointed out that there is a huge oak beam helping to hold the house up and it would look fantastic if it was left exposed (in the dining room). They still had to put the steels next to it and I'm not sure how to hide them as they are several centimetres proud of the beam.

 

[88v8]

So what are they actually doing? Are they knocking down an original wall?

Ivor

 

[Penners]

Like Ivor, I'm not sure I'm clear on what the builders are doing. However, steel bracers need not necessarily be regarded as eyesores (depending on their size and design). They are visible in very many old timber-frame buildings and are an honest part of the building's development and history. If you paint them gunmetal or black, they soon become just an accepted part of the structure.

 

[JanieB]

Depends what you'd call an original wall. The house is part of what was once a terrace of 4 thatched farmworkers cottages built around 1790 as 1up, 1 downs. In 1820 they were totally gutted and turned into 3, and 2 newer cottages added. The roofs were changed to tiles. At this time they made a passageway between the older cottages and the newer ones with a bedroom of one of newer ones over the passageway. At the same time a 2 story extension was put on the backs and kitchens were built in the gardens about 20 feet away from the main terrace leaving a yard in between the back of the houses and the kitchens.

Over time the cottages were bought by different people away from the original family, the old kitchens were pulled down and single story extensions put on the backs of the cottages. The 2 newer houses were the last to be sold out of the original family (within the last 10 years) and their kitchens extended over the row presumably as the brother and sister agreed about it. My neighbour on the other side has turned her 2 houses into 1 so she was able to extend her kitchen over the old row which I can't do. So I'm pulling down the old tiny kitchen and rebuilding it the full width of my house, but taking down part of the back wall of the dining room between what was the window and the door into the old kitchen.

This wall has changed over time as where the window was was obviously the back door at one time, and where the door into the kitchen was used to be the window. This was what I meant about hacking the plaster off and finding out what's underneath.

Perhaps digging out my camera and posting some piccies would help.

The reason I know the history of the terrace is because I was friendly with my late neighbours who were descendants of the farmer who had them built and who owned the farm that used to be at the bottom of our gardens.

 

[Penners]

Perhaps digging out my camera and posting some piccies would help.

That's definitely a good plan, and would save you a thousand words or more!