Period Toilets (Rant)

[wobs]

The idea that we use less water per flush, when getting rid of our poo is an issue that has long been discussed among academics, intellectuals, and select dinner parties for decades. OK, maybe not.

However, industry is failing in providing the best solutions for our toilet needs.

We recently bought a new toilet, hoping to get a traditional design, and fitted with a syphon flush. This is a key point......

Here in the UK, the syphon flush had been the only mechanism allowed to flush a toilet for over a century. Then in 1999, to come into line with the EU, dual flush toilets were allowed for the first time. Everyone cheered, as a new era of efficient loos were introduced, where a “number 1” only used a small amount of water.

Except it was a false dawn.

It turns out the dual flush toilet is a flawed design, as the system is based upon a two valves. The first to fill the cistern up, the second to release the water for the flush.

The thing about valves is that they will eventually leak. Even the best ones will eventually let water through. This means that unless you keep it maintained (and not everyone will), you will be wasting more water than you would otherwise use.

I have seen dual flush toilets waste copious amounts of water, but they will leak for a long time before the untrained eye will notice, as a small leak will be too small to notice.

http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/wcs.pdf

-This link gives a flow of 0.04L/min being an un-noticeable flow to the untrained eye. This equates to 57.6L per day wasted. Add to that the amount of poorly maintained toilets where the leak is easily visible (something I have often seen), and it is clear we are being sold a con.

People are buying dual flush toilets under the assumption that they are buying something very efficient, but it is only true for a limited time.

Compare this with a syphon flush, which cannot leak in this way. The only valve in a syphon toilet is used to fill the cistern, and that is closed by the filling of the cistern. When a syphon unit needs repair it is because it has stopped flushing, but it isn’t leaking. This is usually down to the diaphragm.

Our shiny new toilet (a low level, lever operated design) was ordered on the assumption that it was a syphon system, but it came with a dual flush mechanism operated by the lever. Sneaky gits!

However, I wasn’t beaten. You can still buy siphons. And not just single flush, but variable flushes:-
Saver Syphon:
-I ordered this, and instead of a flimsy diaphragm at the bottom, it comes with a flap, which should last much longer, and the variable flush works very well, as it is an air valve, which stops the flush when you release the lever. Not suitable for close-couple toilets.

You can retrofit a normal syphon flush with an Interflush kit made by the same company. I had this on our last toilet in our previous house, and worked well for many years. It enables you to adjust the timing of your flush cut off as well. Clever stuff.

And the Turbo88 available from most plumb supplies is a dual flush syphon system. I don’t like this personally, but that’s just me.

The ES4 toilet comes fitted with the Turbo88 apparently

 

[vicky whitworth]

Stick a brick in the cistern, and use other people's facilities to poo if you must. Better still, go natural and use the woods.

 

[Penners]

Wobs, I too feel that modern, reduced-water toilets are actually a waste of water - for a slightly different reason. And here I have to get distastefully graphic, I'm afraid.

Even on a long flush, today's loos send considerably less water down the pan. So they have a considerably reduced efficacy in actually getting the pan clean and everything flushed away. And what do we do under such circumstances? We deploy the loo brush, have a good scrub around and then flush again. So we've used double the amount of water, and almost certainly more water than one long, old-fashioned, effective flush would have used.

It's an identical problem to one that I argued with my boss about, years ago. In order to save electricity he turned down the timer on the hot-air hand dryer in the office loo. So the drying time was too short to get your hands dry. So, of course, everyone ran the dryer twice, thus using more electricity than the one longer drying time had previously used.

But would the boss see this? No - he'd made an Executive Decision, so it must have been correct. :roll:

 

[Flyfisher]

Compare this with a syphon flush, which cannot leak in this way. The only valve in a syphon toilet is used to fill the cistern, and that is closed by the filling of the cistern. When a syphon unit needs repair it is because it has stopped flushing, but it isn’t leaking. This is usually down to the diaphragm.

I don't think all syphons are quite so fooproof. We have a siphon loo in which any overflow is discharged into the bowl. This arrangement means that there is no need for separate overflow pipework (which is good) but it also means that a valve failure that only results in a slow overflow is unlikely to be noticed and will therefore result in a lot of wasted water, as you have highlighted.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's an identical problem to one that I argued with my boss about, years ago. In order to save electricity he turned down the timer on the hot-air hand dryer in the office loo. So the drying time was too short to get your hands dry. So, of course, everyone ran the dryer twice, thus using more electricity than the one longer drying time had previously used.

That reminds me of 2kW electric kettles that are supposedly 'greener' than the power-guzzling 3kW models. :roll:

 

[wobs]

Compare this with a syphon flush, which cannot leak in this way. The only valve in a syphon toilet is used to fill the cistern, and that is closed by the filling of the cistern. When a syphon unit needs repair it is because it has stopped flushing, but it isn’t leaking. This is usually down to the diaphragm.

I don't think all syphons are quite so fooproof. We have a siphon loo in which any overflow is discharged into the bowl. This arrangement means that there is no need for separate overflow pipework (which is good) but it also means that a valve failure that only results in a slow overflow is unlikely to be noticed and will therefore result in a lot of wasted water, as you have highlighted.

Oh I agree, but I wanted to limit the number of issues in my first post.

It is a nice solution to have the overflow going down the pan, but as you say, it isn't noticed as early.

But let's not forget that it is a valve that is failing, and not the syphon when this happens.

Speaking of which, it also turns out that most toilets actually use more water than they are rated for, as they start to refill before the end of the flush. This means that you use a bit more water per flush than you think you are. There is of course a solution: Opella Ecofill delays the start of the refill, preventing excess water going down the pan at the end of each flush.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Opella-Compact-Torbeck-Ecofill-Bottom/dp/B008E8Q6AI

 

[Penners]

That reminds me of 2kW electric kettles that are supposedly 'greener' than the power-guzzling 3kW models.

Mrs P always insists on putting our plastic yoghurt pots, margarine tubs, etc. in the dishwasher, to clean them before recycling. She is convinced that this cleaning is free, as the dishwasher is running anyway. Whereas my hand-washing them in a bit of water run from the tap wastes water.

I've tried to explain that the space they take up in the dishwasher means that other things have to wait for the next load, but this falls on deaf ears.

Mrs P 1: Logic 0.

 

[Moo]

Gosh, what a riveting thread. Takes me back to one I started when we lived in Norwich.

I was astonished at the efficiency (and speed) of the flush at our son's house, even though he assured me that it was one of Wickes's cheapest, but I never got round to replacing ours.
However, in our present house we've had to instal two new loos, and both of them are as good as our son's, so I'm very happy with them. Or rather, I was until I read the opening rant and began to worry.
How long can I expect my new loos to last?

 

[Lime]

Why worry about water?
I'm much more concerned about other things when it comes to waste.

 

[middi]

I am with Lime on this one.
From My point of view the more we can flush away to sea the less chance we have of bl**dy drowning in this Country :wink:

Middi

 

[Penners]

Some slightly dodgy logic there, Middi. Surely the more that we flush into the sea, the more risk we run of being drowned in our own...er... flushings! :wink:

 

[Owain]

Germany has some major plumbing problems; the widespread use of low water flushes mean there isn't enough water to flush the solids through the sewers and they're clogging up.

Victorian sewers were designed for Victorian toilet flushes, and British toilets for the British Standard Turd (Annex F of BS EN 997 for those interested)

 

[philpjuk100]

It`s only water! As pointed out to me by some traveling folkI found filling a bowser from my outside tap,"water does not belong to anybody,it`s a gift from god" I have tried to point this out to seven trent but they keep sending me bills!

 

[JoceAndChris]

I guess you only notice the value of water when you haven't got it. though this year no major problems so far.

We have a wonderful old 1930s loo with a great big noisy overhead cistern. It uses plenty of water, so as our source is finite I tend to use our modern loo with the inbuilt cistern, or did, until repeatedly having to fork out hundreds of pounds to get the sewage pipe cleared out. The verdict is that the modern flush is insufficient and not enough water is going down that drain ( all the washing machine water and dishwater goes elsewhere) So now I'm reluctant to use it and wee in the bushes in preference, which both irrigates my dry garden and deters foxes, and saves on all the loo roll going down into the pipe.

Looking forward to a borehole though, and a new old fashioned overhead cistern in the main bathroom. Stupid modern loos.

 

[Penners]

It`s only water! As pointed out to me by some traveling folkI found filling a bowser from my outside tap,"water does not belong to anybody,it`s a gift from god" I have tried to point this out to seven trent but they keep sending me bills!

Quite true - water is the property of the planet. However, reservoirs, boreholes, pipes and pumps are what Severn Trent expect you to pay for!

 

[Penners]

So now I ....wee in the bushes

All well and good in the summer (such as it is) but in sub-zero winter temperatures....?

If you have a compost heap, you should persuade Chris to pee on that. It's a wonderful activator to the composting process. I understand, however, that female pee is not nearly as effective as male. Don't ask me why!

 

[middi]

The vanity and luxuries of the human race knows no bounds.
Let me enlighten all contributors on this forum about the realities of having to c**p in facilities and in a community where nobody had the pleasure of explaining what a toilet chain was. Toilets and running water was the luxuries of town folks or the well off citizens.
Here I am about to tell you a story that nearly left me incapable of " procreate".
Having followed my parents to this Country at the age of 13 (I am nearly 63 now !!), we returned to Italy a couple of years later for a holiday. whilst visiting all our relatives on a daily basis whilst back in Italy ( BORING !!!!!!) I needed to go to the toilet. One of the relatives that we were vising ( one of b***dy thousands it appeared) directed me to a very small shed with a tinned roof attached to another bigger shed right at the edge of a 10 feet drop and overhanging. This lovely "related" lady of mine took great pleasure to explain that this " really lovely" toilet was built by my grandfather ( dead by now) in 1948 and now had a better seat, she said.
I said thank you and made my way towards the corrugated entrance door under the tinned roof. ( I was desperate, been eating figs and had the " runs").
There I was greeted with a wooden chair to sit on, this was modified by removing the seating straw that was replaced by a lambretta old tyre and made for comfortable seating ( if you managed to avoid the steel strand that was exposed at one end !!).
The chair overhanged the drop, problem was that over the decades the old c**p had never been cleaned from below the drop and was only a foot or so away from the seated position.
Once there and in a comfortable seated position the resident dog must have made it's way up the c**p slope waiting for his dinner and must have been hungry as he made a swipe at my dangling willie. I was so shocked that I hit the tinned roof with my head and couldn.t s**t again for 3 days.

Middi

 

[Owain]

I was so shocked that I hit the tinned roof with my head and couldn.t s**t again for 3 days.

Cured the runs, then.

 

[Lime]

Once there and in a comfortable seated position the resident dog must have made it's way up the c**p slope waiting for his dinner and must have been hungry as he made a swipe at my dangling willie. I was so shocked that I hit the tinned roof with my head and couldn.t s**t again for 3 days.

Middi

That is what domestic dogs were used for originally.
They ate peoples' c**p and kept the floor relatively clean.

 

[middi]

Once there and in a comfortable seated position the resident dog must have made it's way up the c**p slope waiting for his dinner and must have been hungry as he made a swipe at my dangling willie. I was so shocked that I hit the tinned roof with my head and couldn.t s**t again for 3 days.

Middi

That is what domestic dogs were used for originally.
They ate peoples' c**p and kept the floor relatively clean.

I tell what ,Lime, I think you may have solved a problem that has bothered me all over these years. I always wondered how the hell they would wipe their a*$es as there was no paper anywhere in sight---- That was it !!!!! --- THEY USED THE DOG !!!!!!!!! :wink:

Middi