Period thermostats

[Pford75]

Aaargh....How annoying! :x

We have out central heating controlled in zones by wireless thermostats (which were excellent to install as there was no need for any wiring damage)...but the LCD displays have already failed on all 3 thermostats to the point where it is impossible to read what temperature is being set. Contacted Honeywell who advised that "They're out of warranty" (3 years old doesn't seem like a long lifespan for a thermostat).....existing model is now obsolete and replacement cost is £94/thermostat.....outrageous. Not planning on spending £300/3 years on thermostats....anyone else had similar problems with LCD display thermostats? All the wireless ones appear to have these displays now....what's wrong with something lower tech but more durable?

 

[Penners]

I haven't had any similar experience with LCD display thermostats, but a couple of years ago I bought a "sea mammal" electric shower unit. This has an LCD display that shows the temperature of the water, various warning messages (as and when) and the time - I imagine the latter is supposed to shout "come on, you've been in this shower for quite long enough!".

The clock part of the LCD display failed after a couple of months. The manufacturer said they would replace the entire shower, but as the rest of the display remained OK, frankly I couldn't be @rsed to go through the plumbing and electrical hassle of fitting a replacement. So the time is permanently 13.88!

 

[Feltwell]

Not much of a sample size Pford, but our digital thermostat was already fitted when we bought the house and is fine 5 years on. I fitted one in the last house a couple of years before we left, that was fine.

They were both wired types though - not so hi-tech here, just a wired thermostat in the hallway with (rather old and of dubious worth) TRV's on the radiators.

 

[Flyfisher]

Three years useful life seems almost unfit for purpose.

I've been looking at heating automation and zoning controls and wondered if there was anything available for iPads and smartphones. Incorporating 'user interface' hardware into almost anything is fairly expensive and it is very much cheaper to just incorporate a wifi or other radio communication mechanism instead and rely on an already existing device to provide the user interface.

The increasing ubiquity of iPads and smartphones now makes it quite practical to use such devices, with the appropriate 'app', as the control interface for all manner of things. My iPad already acts as the remote control for playing music around the house. I've also noticed a lot of new professional-audio products becoming available that rely on the iPad as the control interface and I presume this is happening in orther markets as well.

This company seems to be using the idea to control their heating systems: http://www.passivsystems.com/Homes/Services/RemoteControl.aspx
I'm sure there must be many others.

Perhaps not all that practical to replace and existing home heating control system, but might be worth a thought for completely new installations.

 

[MdB]

http://www.electricity-monitor.com/news/2011/11/nest-learning-thermostat-alternatives-for-uk-homes/
http://www.nest.com/

I believe there is an iPhone app.

however....
http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/honeywell-vs-nest-when-the-establishment-sues-silicon-valley/

 

[Feltwell]

I've been looking at heating automation and zoning controls and wondered if there was anything available for iPads and smartphones. Incorporating 'user interface' hardware into almost anything is fairly expensive and it is very much cheaper to just incorporate a wifi or other radio communication mechanism instead and rely on an already existing device to provide the user interface.

Warning, technophobe moment approaching.....

What you say is undoubtedly true FF, but I suspect that for all but the most ardent of gadget fans that would be a step too far. Having your Ipad / Iphone talking to your central heating is one thing, but as the only way of controlling it? I really can't see that in the forseeable future for a whole host of reasons:-

- Connectivity - having seen a friend trying to get his wireless printer to work, and the battle I had to get my (basic) phone to link via bluetooth to a car radio, the thought of trying to resolve that whilst your family is freezing because you can't turn the heating on is quite another.
- Obsolesence - Today's new shiny IPad is tomorrow's Betamax - would you really want to have to reconfigure / replace your heating controls if you change phone?
- Battery life - "I can't turn the heating on darling, the IPad's flat"
- Reliability - you are relying on a relatively fragile and complex device that is easily broken / lost / nicked.

I have enough problems finding the TV remote (it drives me nuts that I can't even turn the telly on, let alone change channels, without the remote! :evil: ) let alone hunting for a phone to turn the heating on. I suppose at least you can call it providing the battery isn't flat!

I am a luddite. I admit it. I want a control on a wall with wires coming out the back that link to a boiler, so I can put a test meter on them if it goes wrong.

I put wireless security lighting on this house when we first moved in, which I now regret. The idea was so I could have a battery powered sensor near the gate, that switched the mains powered lighting on that was on the house - and not having the pain of running cables between the two.

The battery powered sensor died quite quickly, but got ignored as two other mains powered sensors on the house were on the same system. Now one of those has a duff photocell, so the lights come on during daylight hours - and I can't replace the sensor as that particular system is no longer made. So now I've got to re-wire the whole thing to take standard PIR sensors. If I'd just fitted standard wired PIR sensors to begin with, if they died and I found they were no longer made I could have replaced them easily & cheaply with another manufacturer's sensor.

It's the same for heating controls - wired time switches and thermostats all connect in much the same way, if my timer dies I could replace it with someone else's unit with little pain. For some things simple is good!

Of course I realise that the march of progress will eventually trample straight over the likes of I :roll: :lol:

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks for those links, MdB, I had somehow missed the 'Nest' thing. Interesting that the founder claims to have invented the iPod - I thought Jonathan Ive (now Sir Jonathan Ive since the new years's honours list) already had that claim! Of course, such development projects involve a lot of people, but on that basis I could put in a claim for having invented the jpeg algorithm. I don't suppose it will earn me a knighthood though. :lol:

Feltwell raises a lot of interesting points. I think it was Einstein who said "things should be made as simple as possible but no simpler" so something like that. An iPad or a smartphone is undoubtedly a complicated device and practically impossible to make or repair at a DIY level, but it is also a standard thing, which makes it ubiquitous and easily replaceable - as easily replaceable as a 'smart-valve' with its own programmable LCD. Is a system with numerous smart-valves but no overall control more or less complex than a system with numerous less-smart valves all controlled by a single programming device?

I entirely agree that there should be a fallback mechanism in case the top-level remote controller fails, but that also applies with a 'simple' central heating timer. What does the average person do when that fails? You may be able to 'hardwire' the boiler to switch on when the timer fails, but most people couldn't. And what happens when the boiler doesn't light anyway? Whether we like it or not, we're already all dependent on layers and layers of techno-complexity, most of which we hardly think about.

So, I wouldn't dismiss these high-tech possibilities out of hand though I suppose we all have to find our own comfort level with such things.

Personally, I could imagine having a go at gadget-based heating control system . . . . but only if it also included a couple of stoves and a shed full of wood, just in case. :lol:

 

[worms]

...but the LCD displays have already failed on all 3 thermostats to the point where it is impossible to read what temperature is being set.

I know nothing about thermostats, but it seems that the manufacturers of modern gadgets expect you to replace the whole thing when the battery that powers the LCD runs out. Can you not find a way to open it and replace the cells? I've done that with my Honeywell central heating programmer, although the manufacturer would suggest that it can't/shouldn't be done.

 

[Feltwell]

Personally, I could imagine having a go at gadget-based heating control system . . . . but only if it also included a couple of stoves and a shed full of wood, just in case. :lol:

You & me both! I agree, I'd have a go as well so long as there was a "Plan B". My house having a gas fire and a working open fire saved my bacon when the pcb went on my boiler not long ago, otherwise Mrs F would not have been a happy bunny. Yes, we are without doubt reliant on layers of complexity already. The days of my taking the boiler apart and quickly replacing the thermocouple (which was the only thing which ever seemed to go wrong with it) are already gone!

I do take slight issue though with the notion that an ipad or smartphone is a standard thing. I have neither, so you will know far more about them than I do, but I assume the operating system is unique to each manufacturer - so an Iphone app doesn't work on a Samsung for instance - is that right? So if your iPhone that controls your heating dies, you have to buy another iPhone? I guess eventually we'll get to the point where 1 platform dominates, much as with PC's (cue outraged Mac owners :wink: ), but in the meantime I do like the fact that if my heating controller dies I can go out and buy another quickly, as it doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer, and cheaply as there is competition.

...but the LCD displays have already failed on all 3 thermostats to the point where it is impossible to read what temperature is being set.

I know nothing about thermostats, but it seems that the manufacturers of modern gadgets expect you to replace the whole thing when the battery that powers the LCD runs out. Can you not find a way to open it and replace the cells? I've done that with my Honeywell central heating programmer, although the manufacturer would suggest that it can't/shouldn't be done.

It's ridiculous isn't it? I had a little digital tyre gauge recently like this, clearly not intended to come apart but once I did I found it had a standard button cell lurking deep within it - 75p from Ebay for a new one, including postage! I hate the fact that gadgets have built-in obsolesence - it's not just me being tight, it's just such a waste to throw an otherwise working item in the bin. The rechargeable battery on an old iPod was close to death, when I finally got the iPod apart it was soldered in. I replaced it, but it was clearly intended that by the time the battery went the iPod would just be consigned to the bin.

 

[MdB]

I replaced it, but it was clearly intended that by the time the battery went the iPod would just be consigned to the bin.

It's a conscious decision on Apples behalf that their products have an approx 2 year life. You are expected to upgrade at this point (though they have started offering battery replacements). Lots of people don't like this however many of the alternative manufacturers aren't much better.

 

[Penners]

I am a luddite. I admit it.

Not by comparison with some younger folk - not by a very long chalk.

Some years ago when young Miss P was moving out of her student house at the end of her time at university, we went along to make sure that all the student inmates had cleaned the place properly, so as to avoid loss of a hefty security deposit that had been paid to the landlord. One young lady (who got a first in Economics) had been designated to clean and flush to toilet. When Mrs P inspected it, she found it hadn't been done.

"I'm so sorry," said the Oxford Graduate, "but I knew I couldn't flush the loo because the electricity has been turned off."

I imagine she now has a maid to clean her toilet for her. :roll:

 

[AMc]

Aaargh....How annoying! :x

We have out central heating controlled in zones by wireless thermostats (which were excellent to install as there was no need for any wiring damage)...but the LCD displays have already failed on all 3 thermostats to the point where it is impossible to read what temperature is being set. Contacted Honeywell who advised that "They're out of warranty" (3 years old doesn't seem like a long lifespan for a thermostat).....existing model is now obsolete and replacement cost is £94/thermostat.....outrageous. Not planning on spending £300/3 years on thermostats....anyone else had similar problems with LCD display thermostats? All the wireless ones appear to have these displays now....what's wrong with something lower tech but more durable?

I take it you've googled the model numbers and checked fleabay? I've found that a number of items the manufacturers have absolved themselves of responsibility for can be repaired or replaced thanks to the joy if the internet - for example there is a fault with my decade old Merc which requires a new engine management computer from Germany (£1400) to extinguish a warning light on the dash. The warning light MAY cause an MOT failure this year despite the emissions being within the limits. eBay found me a firm that will replace the sensor and re-engineer the existing unit for £200 if I pull it out and courier it to them.

I think £300 pounds of faulty units only 3 years old would be below the expected lifespan. You could file or threaten to file a small claims court thingy and see if Honeywell will budge - or at least offer you replacements at a discount?

Rant begins....

I increasingly look at gadgets with a view that mechanical and fixable are desirable; touch controls, displays and "smart" integration are not.

The iPad/iPhone have a proprietary, closed source operating system - iOS. Apple routinely change their hardware and software specs so what worked on your old device may not work on your new one and your "old device" e.g. 3 years old may no longer be supported at all.
I have an iPhone 3 which I've been using for several years and a number of iPods and docking devices inc. 2 car stereos - one 4 years old, the other about 3.
1st iPod 40GB has a firewire connection - so is no longer able to charge from any of the docks available despite the connector appearing to be the same as the latest iPhone4S. Still plays music, but no external controls.
2nd iPod 120GB plays back but will no longer synch with a computer, so you can't update the music and Apple regarded it as beyond economic repair at 2 1/2 years old.
3rd iPod 80GB plays fine and works in the cars
4th iPod 160GB plays fine and works in the cars.
My iPhone3 needs a 3rd party adapter to charge from my car and plays providing you put it on it's home screen before you connect it. Otherwise the stereo says "error 01" and the only way to reset is to TURN THE IGNITION OFF and ON AGAIN! Connecting it to one of my docks causes it to playback alphabetically regardless of what you had previously set. The iPhone3 is also no longer supported for the current versions of the iOS so I can't install many of the apps being released - tough, complex ones like Richer Sounds online store
My partner's iPhone4 won't play in my car at all.

In short I wouldn't put my heating controls in the hands of an iOS device - or for that matter an Android one, or a windows one, or a Mac - I MIGHT just trust a linux device but probably not

 

[eezageeza]

And getting back to the original question ... I acquired a new camera about 20 years ago which had an LCD display, and remember being alarmed (because it was a very expensive camera) to see the instructions reporting that the LCD was likely to need replacing after 5 years. Although the camera is now thoroughly obsolete, I'm happy to report that the LCD is still fully functional!

Similarly, we installed a programmable thermostat on our central heating system maybe 10 years ago, complete with LCD readout, and it is still working perfectly.

If your £94 units have failed in 3 years I think I'd want to complain to the manufacturer abour merchantable quality, regardless of the warranty period.

 

[AMc]

And getting back to the original question ... I acquired a new camera about 20 years ago which had an LCD display, and remember being alarmed (because it was a very expensive camera) to see the instructions reporting that the LCD was likely to need replacing after 5 years. Although the camera is now thoroughly obsolete, I'm happy to report that the LCD is still fully functional!

Recently clearing out the office I found a solar powered handheld electronic game I bought when I was about 10. It's now 28 years later, I opened the lid and the display came to life and it plays as well as it ever did. There is nothing intrinsic about LCD that should cause it fail as quickly as Pford75's thermostats have.

 

[LadyArowana]

I am a luddite. I admit it.

Not by comparison with some younger folk - not by a very long chalk.

Some years ago when young Miss P was moving out of her student house at the end of her time at university, we went along to make sure that all the student inmates had cleaned the place properly, so as to avoid loss of a hefty security deposit that had been paid to the landlord. One young lady (who got a first in Economics) had been designated to clean and flush to toilet. When Mrs P inspected it, she found it hadn't been done.

"I'm so sorry," said the Oxford Graduate, "but I knew I couldn't flush the loo because the electricity has been turned off."

I imagine she now has a maid to clean her toilet for her. :roll:

If she was Japanese then I think she might have to be given a little latitude. Whilst their lovely Toto toilets can be flushed without the electricity supply being functional, they do require power! I believe they are now sold in the UK. One of my friends who also used to live in Tokyo is considering a bathroom refurb and has her heart set on one. I told her it would be essential to tell the builder In advance because they wouldn't normally be running a cable to the toilet.

http://gb.toto.com/products/product-single-view/Product/show/NEOREST_SE_Toilet/


...... and yes that model even comes with a remote control, I expect there is in iPhone app, how lovely.

 

[Penners]

Toto toilet .... even comes with a remote control, I expect there is in iPhone app, how lovely.

As a one-time father of a teenage boy, I suggest that this idea is anything but lovely. Can you imagine sitting on the toilet, while Junior is outside with his iPhone and an evil grin on his face?

 

[LadyArowana]

Toto toilet .... even comes with a remote control, I expect there is in iPhone app, how lovely.

As a one-time father of a teenage boy, I suggest that this idea is anything but lovely. Can you imagine sitting on the toilet, while Junior is outside with his iPhone and an evil grin on his face?

I understand your reasoning, but since they also have built in deodorizing functions then it's probably about even.

 

[Flyfisher]

Somewhat bizarrely, I think we can blame long-life battery technology for disposable products. Before batteries lasted for many years, they had to be made to be replaceable, nowadays, products can be sealed up and still, hopefully, last for many years. Also, a short design lifetime might be regarded as legitimate in cases where the basic technology will almost certainly be superceded within a few years. The first hard drive I bought was a whopping 850MB and it was still working perfectly when I replaced it because of its now almost useless storage capacity.

I suspect Pford's LCDs are actually fine but that the internal batteries powering them have died. Still, not a good excuse if they are not user-replaceable.

I take it you've googled the model numbers and checked fleabay? I've found that a number of items the manufacturers have absolved themselves of responsibility for can be repaired or replaced thanks to the joy if the internet - for example there is a fault with my decade old Merc which requires a new engine management computer from Germany (£1400) to extinguish a warning light on the dash. The warning light MAY cause an MOT failure this year despite the emissions being within the limits. eBay found me a firm that will replace the sensor and re-engineer the existing unit for £200 if I pull it out and courier it to them.

Quite so. My 1998 Saab "Service Theft Alarm" indicator started to show a few years ago. The Saab garage said that the 'sounder unit' needed replacement for around £450 plus labour plus VAT. The internet revealed that the real problem was that the sealed unit contained two lithium batteries that would power the alrm if the main battery was disconnected. Apparently they tended to last for about 10 years and as their voltage dropped they would trigger the alarm. Because "our fully trained vehicle technicians" are incapable of actually repairing anything these days, only removing and replacing whole, expensive, sub-assemblies, these alarm units are replaced. Armed with web details, I was able to replace the two batteries at a total cost of about £13.

The iPad/iPhone have a proprietary, closed source operating system - iOS. Apple routinely change their hardware and software specs so what worked on your old device may not work on your new one and your "old device" e.g. 3 years old may no longer be supported at all.

While I have a lot of sympathy with the basic feeling, I'd say the reasons mentioned are not entirely fair. A proprietary, closed source operating systems isn't necessarily a problem as long as the interfaces are well defined and properly supported. This is why you can change the OS on a computer but still run old software. This is why the computer hardware design can be completely changed (as it has done over the years) but still be able to run old software. Indeed, this principe of interface and standards backward-compatibility is one of the prime reasons that the computer industry has been able to advance so incredibly fast in the past 30 years. And, of course, the very ubiquity of PCs and other devices such as mobile phones means that everyone has a huge vested interest in continuing to support them - or rather their interfaces and standards - for the long term.

In short I wouldn't put my heating controls in the hands of an iOS device - or for that matter an Android one, or a windows one, or a Mac - I MIGHT just trust a linux device but probably not

Nor would I, without a alternative control mechanism (probably manual) - but even manual switches are of little use if the mains electricity fails, or the unserviceable boiler fails, or the unrepairable circulation pump fails, etc etc. The last time I experienced a boiler failure, it took three days to be repaired because of parts availability. I bet I could have obtained a new smartphone in much less time!

 

[wobs]

Rant begins....

I increasingly look at gadgets with a view that mechanical and fixable are desirable; touch controls, displays and "smart" integration are not.

The iPad/iPhone have a proprietary, closed source operating system - iOS. Apple routinely change their hardware and software specs so what worked on your old device may not work on your new one and your "old device" e.g. 3 years old may no longer be supported at all.
I have an iPhone 3 which I've been using for several years and a number of iPods and docking devices inc. 2 car stereos - one 4 years old, the other about 3.
1st iPod 40GB has a firewire connection - so is no longer able to charge from any of the docks available despite the connector appearing to be the same as the latest iPhone4S. Still plays music, but no external controls.
2nd iPod 120GB plays back but will no longer synch with a computer, so you can't update the music and Apple regarded it as beyond economic repair at 2 1/2 years old.
3rd iPod 80GB plays fine and works in the cars
4th iPod 160GB plays fine and works in the cars.
My iPhone3 needs a 3rd party adapter to charge from my car and plays providing you put it on it's home screen before you connect it. Otherwise the stereo says "error 01" and the only way to reset is to TURN THE IGNITION OFF and ON AGAIN! Connecting it to one of my docks causes it to playback alphabetically regardless of what you had previously set. The iPhone3 is also no longer supported for the current versions of the iOS so I can't install many of the apps being released - tough, complex ones like Richer Sounds online store
My partner's iPhone4 won't play in my car at all.

And people wonder why I stick to CD MP3s for my car, and a Brennan at home. With the car, I just stick the stereo front on the radio, and its ready to play about 700Mb of music.

That said, I read The Idle Parent recently, and it recommends living 10 years in the past from a technology point of view. That way you can live the life of luxury far more cheaply.

Live 100 years in the past, and live like kings!

 

[LadyArowana]

That said, I read The Idle Parent recently, and it recommends living 10 years in the past from a technology point of view. That way you can live the life of luxury far more cheaply.

Live 100 years in the past, and live like kings!

I think it would be quite expensive to replace the washing machine, vacuum cleaner and various other devices with full time maids and a butler.