Period Pub Preservation- Help Please

[agbagb]

We're really hoping you knowledgeable lot can help here. We've recently found out that our local pub has been sold to a property investment firm by the Brewery (two years ago without informing the Landlord :evil: ). The property co plan to turn it into a Co-Op. The village neither wants, nor needs, another convenience store, we are very well served already.
Our aim is to make things as difficult as possible for the investment co. to do this. We've applied to the council for an Asset of Community Value listing (meaning if the property is resold it has to be offered to the community first) which were hopeful of achieving as it's the only accessible pub for miles. We've also applied for an Article 4 direction (which means they will have to apply for planning permission for change of use) we have other tricks up our sleeve for further down the line, traffic objections etc.
We are exploring the possibility of getting the building listed. It's been messed about with over the years, so isn't the prettiest BUT it is historically important to the village. Before the pub was built as a coaching inn in approx. 1851, there was no village just a couple of cottages. The pub was built to attract workers to the local West Staveley Colliery and the rest of the village grew up around it, including shops (our house was built as one) other pubs and support industries. Is there a facility for listing buildings due to their historical significance to an area rather than it's architectural importance?

What constitutes National historical significance? Any help or suggestions very gratefully received.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I think I'm going to be the bearer of bad tidings. Though undoubtedly important to the village - and you are probably right to be going for "community asset" status, there is no way that a rather run of the mill pub building with a history that could be matched by lots of others in former mining communities, which has been significantly altered, would make it past the first hurdle for being listed.
The selection criteria for pubs form part of this document
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...nge-buildings/commerce_and_exchange_final.pdf
while CAMRA has this to say
http://www.heritagepubs.org.uk/home/gettingapublisted.asp
I'm saying this because the other routes are more deserving of effort which may otherwise be wasted on trying to get it listed.

 

[agbagb]

Thanks for that Gareth, 'tis just as we feared then. We were hoping someone may have some examples of "exceptions" so to speak!

 

[malcolm]

I think changing a pub to a convenience store doesn't require change of use. They will probably need planning permission for chsnges to the building. Have a good look at the Camra website - there is a lit of info about tyring to save pubs on there. Planners don't like to lose the last pub in a village so might be sympathetic, but you need a planning application to go in before you can object. If you have your own plan to save it then that would be useful - approach the owners with it.

 

[LadyArowana]

Investment companies exist to make money out of their assets. If everyone gets down the pub and buys loads of beer and pork scratchings then the landlord will be on a nice little earner and can afford to pay a higher rent to the freeholder, sorted. If on the other hand everyone is stocking up on booze at the supermarket and only goes to their local on Christmas eve...

 

[skier-hughes]

Malcolm is right, a pub can become a shop, which is why many have, with no permissions required, so long as they don't make any changes to the building.

 

[Flyfisher]

I rather think Milady has hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head. I'm sure the owners won't care if the building is a pub, a shop or anything else as long as they can get an economic return on their asset, but without local support - i.e. spending money where it counts - it's hard to see how this can happen.

Besides, a shop will only be more successful than a pub if the locals want it to be, and if it turns out that way then the locals will be happy . . . . won't they?

 

[agbagb]

Thanks everyone.
We are trying to get an article 4 direction on it. This would take away the permitted development rights to change it from a pub to a shop A4 to A1(or to demolish it) without planning permission.

Unless we can find something of "national historical significance" in the pubs history it looks like we will have to forget a listing.

It is a viable pub & making a profit unfortunately Marstons, the developers New River Retail and prospective leasee Co-op have come up with a wease that involves grand plans and off shore tax havens. So it ends up being less than black and white when they are looking for short term tax free profit.

Cheers

 

[Keith Bowman]

I find it hard to believe that the co-operative is knowingly involved in off shore tax havens. Perhaps it would pay to check with their ethical committee (can't remember the proper name but they do have such a thing).

 

[agbagb]

I find it hard to believe that the co-operative is knowingly involved in off shore tax havens. Perhaps it would pay to check with their ethical committee (can't remember the proper name but they do have such a thing).

We've been talking to them about withdrawing and are waiting for a response from the chief exec.

Yes we found it hard to believe but they have a leasing agreement for a tranche of pubs from the owners who are incorporated in Jersey.

 

[Flyfisher]

I find it hard to believe that the co-operative is knowingly involved in off shore tax havens.

. . . in which case you may find it even harder to believe that even the taxman himself is not averse to the attractions of offshoring. Unfortunately, when you're in the business of collecting taxes, negotiating a deal that results in less tax being paid seems rather counter productive. You couldn't make it up. :roll:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/08/revenue-tax-offshore-millions-avoidance

 

[JanieB]

We've had developers trying to turn 3 of our remaining 9 pubs into flats. All 3 are listed buildings and all profitable, successful businesses.

The first one they closed for 2 years to try and prove that it was no longer a going concern. The planning department said that as a pub in the centre of town it wasn't suitable to be turned into flats and the developers were forced to reopen it. It is currently one of the 2 most popular hostelries in the town.

The second one (same developers having another go) was turned down as it happens to be one of the oldest pub buildings in the UK and was of considerable historic interest. There was a hostelry on that site in the Domesday Book.

The third one the (different) developers succeeded even though it was a successful business mainly because it was a well run pub and the only one at that end of town.

It all rather depends on the planning dept. Community asset status is definitely a good idea.

 

[Tony.]

Our village had a nice pub, decent pint of 80 shilling and the food was good.
The owners retired and it eas taken over and converted as a restaurant.

It doesnt have the same appeal any more, you can't go in for a pint unless its with a meal,so I wish you well in keeping the pub open

 

[Penners]

Investment companies exist to make money out of their assets. If everyone gets down the pub and buys loads of beer and pork scratchings then the landlord will be on a nice little earner and can afford to pay a higher rent to the freeholder, sorted. If on the other hand everyone is stocking up on booze at the supermarket and only goes to their local on Christmas eve...

Exactly so. It's a matter of market forces. I've lost track of the number of times I have heard the phrase, "the community doesn't want this...", whereas what it's actually saying is, "a small, vocal minority doesn't want it".

I don't mean that to be unkind, but I have come across this kind of situation many times in villages where I've lived. Ultimately, it's probable that the pub is being sold because it wasn't sufficiently profitable to be viable, so whatever happens to the building it's almost certainly doomed as a pub. If the community really doesn't want it to be a store, they'll respond to the change by not shopping there.

 

[agbagb]

We are up against very distant market forces, local demand and trade means the pup is a viable business. Unfortunately Marstons want to get of the "local" pub business so they sold it and 199 other pubs to another company who think they can make more money by converting them and leasing them out to the likes of co-op. As the planning system doesn't protect them they are able to close them despite (this one) being a profitable business. We are pretty certain the store won't work out for Co-op but by that time it'll be too late to convert it back to pub so they'll probabley end up converting it or demolishing it to build housing.

A change in the planning law for this kind of permitted development is being voted on in Parliament on Monday, but it won't be enacted soon enough to help save the Wellington.

We've got a petition 1500+ in to the council so there'll be debate at the next full council meeting, a bit scary as I might be the one speaking.