Period Electrickery

[wobs]

The house we are looking at purchasing, which looks like it will ned at least a partial re-wire. I'd like to get this done this year so its done, and we have the peace of mid of electrics that are in spec with modern standards and will serve us better.

While the cables look ok, the sockets are mostly singles (we could do to convert most to doubles), and some rooms could do to have a few more.

Light circuit needs full rewire as far as I can tell, as it's a two core cable. It also has wooden back boxes for the switches!

Electrics going to the garage looks "interesting", and I haven't fully worked out what's going on yet, but looks very old.

Also I'm looking to get a new consumer unit fitted

I'll be getting an electrician to give us a quote on work, and views on legal requirements.

Basically, the main question: What things would you look to do if you were doing this sort of work now, and what things would you deem unnecessary.

 

[LadyArowana]

I would lay in electricity to the bathroom so I could have a Toto washlet toilet :lol: ( you did ask :wink: )

 

[CliffordPope]

If it has period electric fittings I'd carefully restore them.

That's what I did in our cottage. I sourced old round-pin sockets in a range of sizes, and found porcelain and wooden light switches. Everything used in the cottage has round-pin plugs.

It's useful to have lots of adaptors from round/square and square/round, but all these are still available because India, SE Asia and southern Africa still use round-pin.

 

[Penners]

I'm afraid I disagree with CliffordPope. If restoring "period" electric fittings means that you have to use adaptors, then you're not taking the safest approach. And electricity should always demand a safety-first policy.

How old is the house? If it was built pre-electricity, then any electrical fittings are anachronistic, so it makes no difference whether these were designed/made/fitted 100 years ago or yesterday. They're still out of place, in a sense.

My argument on this topic has always been that you want electrical fittings to be as invisible as possible. I suggest that "antique" fittings - brass, bakelite, etc. - are certainly not that. Their unfamiliarity draws attention to them. The most invisible such fittings are the standard modern white plastic jobs - their ubiquitousness means that people simply don't notice them. So that's what I would always use.

As for your wiring, you should certainly get a properly qualified electrician to inspect it. If you need to fit a new consumer unit, you may well find that an electrician would refuse to connect sub-standard cabling to it anyway. It's certainly not worth cutting corners or taking any risks whatsoever with electricity.

 

[wobs]

I'm afraid I disagree with CliffordPope. If restoring "period" electric fittings means that you have to use adaptors, then you're not taking the safest approach. And electricity should always demand a safety-first policy.

How old is the house? If it was built pre-electricity, then any electrical fittings are anachronistic, so it makes no difference whether these were designed/made/fitted 100 years ago or yesterday. They're still out of place, in a sense.

My argument on this topic has always been that you want electrical fittings to be as invisible as possible. I suggest that "antique" fittings - brass, bakelite, etc. - are certainly not that. Their unfamiliarity draws attention to them. The most invisible such fittings are the standard modern white plastic jobs - their ubiquitousness means that people simply don't notice them. So that's what I would always use.

As for your wiring, you should certainly get a properly qualified electrician to inspect it. If you need to fit a new consumer unit, you may well find that an electrician would refuse to connect sub-standard cabling to it anyway. It's certainly not worth cutting corners or taking any risks whatsoever with electricity.

I very much agree Penners.
House is 1900s
I was just looking for general tips from people who have gone through this. As I said, I'll be getting an electrician, to ensure it complies with the regs and is safe etc. and is done safely. But I was looking for any tips to ensure we don't miss any work out that we might later regret. Or any work they think is unnecessary.

 

[88v8]

Round pin? No thanks.
New wiring, yes please.
But old light switches and wooden patresses? Most certainly. They don't meet The Regs, but I don't care a hoot. Do they work, is all that matters.

Brass switches with porcelain bases, bakelite switches, porcelain roses. New fittings have no place in an old house.
IMHO.
Here's a pic with a couple of switches in the background. There for twenty years, on new wiring, and probably 40 years old when I fitted them.

Ivor

 

[Flyfisher]

I wouldn't rush to replace two-core lighting cables, unless it was very easy and non-destructive to carry out. Lighting sockets have always seemed inherently dangerous to me (bare, live terminals when bulbs are removed!) so the lack of an earth wire is not, I'd say, such a big deal SO LONG AS the consumer unit contains modern RCDs that will trip in the case of any current leakage.

I don't really know the latest regulations but my understanding is that pre-existing wiring can still be used and connected to, but I'm sure your electrician would be able to advise.

My feeling is that a modern consumer unit, preferably with circuits split into two halves and equipped with RCDs, will go a long way towards making an old installation pretty much as safe as a new one.

As for switches and sockets, we can probably debate that topic until the cows come home as it falls into the realm of personal preference. To my mind, Ivor's photo is a good example of Penners' point. Yes, the switches look very nice but it's a good job they do because they are so very prominent. A small, white, double switchplate may not be as visually attractive (personal preference alert!) but it would certainly be less dominant and distracting.

We have a mixture of both types and, to be honest, I have no strong feelings either way. My only strong feeling is for the 'old' brass toggle-style switch with an exceedingly loose screw-on cap that can be easily removed to reveal bare terminals. I might be a fan of RCDs but I'm not so keen on having visitors being the unwitting guinea-pigs who test whther the RCD trips out before they notice their finger has strayed onto a live terminal. :shock:

So, safety first, followed by aesthetic preferences because, as Penners' rightly points out, anything to do with electrickery is modern in a 450 year old house - even if the switches happen to be 75 years old.

 

[Penners]

Here's a pic with a couple of switches in the background.

Background?

I rest my case.

 

[plasticpigeon]

In a house that never had electricity people should use the switches they like. I think putting old switches in a new build would probably be a bit odd, but old switches in an even older house just means that the owner is choosing the the switch style from the era they like most. As the house could have been retrofitted with electricity at any time what's the problem?

 

[Penners]

There's no problem whatsoever, PP. We were asked for our views and we gave them. Ultimately it's all a matter of individual preference.

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed, though we should perhaps strive for some consistency. Along with Edwardian light switches, modern computing equipment, for example, can be made to 'blend in' to a more period environment:



Although it would be wise to take advantage of modern microchips for our computing equipment, lest we end up with something more authentically 'period' with which to enjoy PPUK:

 

[Zebra]

Leaving aside the question of taste/preference regarding style of sockets and switches, I think wobs was asking for "things to think of now which should be included in a quote for a rewire, rather than left out and possibly regretted later." If that was what you meant wobs, then you might not need all of these, but things to think about might include:
location and number of socket outlets, obviously
sockets for appliances eg dishwashers and washing machines
whether your appliances are integrated and would therefore need fused spurs above the worktop
what type of lights you want - this may affect number of light points required and their location
any two-way switching, for example switching the landing from downstairs and the hall from upstairs
any 5-amp sockets to be able to switch table lamps from the wall switch
outside lights, sensors if required
shed or garden lighting
loft light
loft sockets for TV aerial booster if required
wiring for boiler/central heating pump/immersion/shower
kitchen undercabinet lights
cooker hoods and extraction
cooker circuit - will be required if you are having electric hob or a large kW rated oven
cooker switch
bathroom extractor fan
bathroom shaver point or mirror lights
smoke alarms (a requirement if having a rewire)
main protective bonding will be required on water and gas pipework
doorbell perhaps
phone points (some electricians do phone wiring too)
TV aerial points (likewise)
Mmmmm, that's all I can think of for now.

I'm afraid I disagree with Flyfisher about the replacement of two-core cable not being necessary. You can keep old two-core wiring, but electricians are very much encouraged by the regulatory authorities to encourage householders to replace such wiring rather than simply put it on an RCD. You could keep it only if there are no metal switches or light fittings on the affected circuits, and the cables are tested to be in good condition, and then you must fix a notice to the consumer unit advising any future residents not to have metal switches or light fittings installed. But RCDs are intended for supplementary protection, not for basic protection against electric shock from unearthed metal fittings.

I'm afraid I must also comment on Flyfisher's statement that a new consumer unit will go a long way towards making an old installation as safe as a new one. It will of course be safer but there are faults (loose connections, undersized cabling for example) which a new consumer unit won't protect against any better than an old one, so you can't get away with simply upgrading your consumer unit and then assume that the house is safe. What needs to happen is that all circuits are tested, and any faults rectified at the same time. Domestic installations are supposed to be tested every 5-10 years anyway, although few are.

You could get away with a partial rewire though. Other existing circuits would just have to be tested and any faults rectified. Your electrician won't know until the testing is done, which circuits would be safe to keep, although a quick poke about with a screwdriver might give an idea.

 

[Owain]

In a period property I would put in galvanised steel conduit and be very careful about its layout. That should allow any future rewiring to be done by drawing new cables into the existing conduit with minimal disruption to the fabric of the house.

Duct/conduit for tv/audio/network cable as well, with draw ropes, can be finished with blanking plates for now, but every room should have a duct from 2 opposite corners back to a central point on that floor to allow for future technology. Wireless is not going to be the answer with a very crowded spectrum!

 

[Penners]

things to think about might include:
location ... of socket outlets

Just so long as you resign yourself to one of the most immutable laws of electrical installation:-

No matter how much pre-planning you do, you'll always end up with at least one socket buried behind a chest-of-drawers.

 

[PeterI]

Although it would be wise to take advantage of modern microchips for our computing equipment, lest we end up with something more authentically 'period' with which to enjoy PPUK:

Sadly that picture is a photoshop job and the image is actually a submarine control panel http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_rand_home_computer.htm

Bit of a shame as I rather liked the idea. The Honeywell H316 Kitchen computer http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=927 is probably a bit more accurate.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm afraid I disagree with Flyfisher about the replacement of two-core cable not being necessary. You can keep old two-core wiring, but electricians are very much encouraged by the regulatory authorities to encourage householders to replace such wiring rather than simply put it on an RCD.

To be fair, I did say "I wouldn't rush to replace two-core lighting cables, unless it was very easy and non-destructive to carry out." I entirely agree that the ideal would be to bring an entire installation up to the very latest regulations, so I'm not surprised that this is encouraged. But the regulatory authorities doing the encouraging are probably not thinking about all the implications when dealing with an historic property.

You could keep it only if there are no metal switches or light fittings on the affected circuits, and the cables are tested to be in good condition, and then you must fix a notice to the consumer unit advising any future residents not to have metal switches or light fittings installed.

Yes, in the same way that notices have to be fixed to advise of installations with mixed wiring colours. Our electrician used those when we had our new CU fitted. So the regulations do recognise, and allow, for hybrid installations in certain circumstances.

But RCDs are intended for supplementary protection, not for basic protection against electric shock from unearthed metal fittings.

That's an interesting point (a polite form of disagreement :wink: ). An unearthed metal fitting won't give you an electric shock UNLESS there is ALSO a wiring fault. However, the chances of a live wire fault (i.e. touching the metal fitting) must surely be much the same as the chance of an earth wire fault, so how can anyone know that all those metal fittings are actually earthed with a sufficiently good connection to ground such that the fuse will actually blow if the live conductor comes into contact with the metal? You rightly point out that domestic installations are rarely tested so my bet is that there are loads of undetected earthing faults out there.

In contrast, an RCD can be easily and regularly tested by the homeowner and will prevent a fatal electric shock in a wide variety of circumstances while not depending on earth wiring integrity. Indeed, when we had our new CU installed, one of the lighting circuits began to trip when it rained, which turned out to be due to a leak into a rusty old conduit junction box in the attic - something that the properly earthed conduit and old-style fuse did not protect against.

I'm afraid I must also comment on Flyfisher's statement that a new consumer unit will go a long way towards making an old installation as safe as a new one. It will of course be safer . . . .

"Safer" was my basic point. Again, I entirely agree it wouldn't bring the entire installation up to current regulation standards. I was just suggesting that faced with an old house with old wiring threaded through valuable historic fabric, a modern new CU would be a good starting point for improving the safety of the installation with minimal disturbance to the building itself.

 

[Flyfisher]

Sadly that picture is a photoshop job and the image is actually a submarine control panel http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_rand_home_computer.htm

Yes, the big wheel is a bit of a giveaway, but it had the appropriate caption. :wink:

I suppose this would be the definitive valve-based period computer:

 

[LadyArowana]

I suppose this would be the definitive valve-based period computer:

:shock:

 

[Flyfisher]

Amazing indeed. For a bit of context, all those red things are 'valves' (thermionic tubes) - smallish glass bottles that perform the basic switching functions required by all digital computers. The more of these 'switches' available, the more powerful the computer. I haven't counted them, but it looks like there are a few hundred valves in that Colossus computer.

I'm sure we've all heard about silicon chips these days, but we may not all realise that a typical PC 'chip' today contains the equivalent of about 1.4 BILLION of those red tubes!

 

[LadyArowana]

Amazing indeed.
I'm sure we've all heard about silicon chips these days, but we may not all realise that a typical PC 'chip' today contains the equivalent of about 1.4 BILLION of those red tubes!

That would take a huge amount of space, and my iPad or lappy fits in my bag, sooooooo how come we can't use that same tardis technology to make the insides of our houses bigger than the outside then? :lol: