Paying in cash and a deposit

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

just a general ventage from me really this time....
So last year we engaged a joiner to do repairs on our windows in our 18C cottage. Having used him before to completely replace the completely rotten attic window I was sure of this guys workmanship and the price whilst not cheap was "within tolerances".

As with so many of these types of tradespeople, his terms were that he required a 50% deposit before the work could start. I duly paid him the £700 or so pounds deposit and arranged a date in January for the work to start. I was contacted by his admin lady at the beginning of December as I'd neglected to pay the VAT on the deposit, so another £150.00 approx. was due. I made the payment and then Christmas happened etc etc... a week before the work was due to start, we got a letter to say that the Joiner had filed for bankruptcy and his business was being liquidated. I could apply to the receiver as a debtor but I would have to pay them commission and fees and when we phoned to enquire about what we needed to do, we were advised that there really wasn't any point in asking as the big debtors would be paid first and we'd be lucky to see £100 of our money back.

£850.00 is a lot of money to us but I had to write it off and then employ another joiner to do the work but on a much cheaper basis (and therefore not as good) and I've had to do a lot of the other work myself (again not as good as a skilled craftsmen).

Sorry bit long winded but I'll get to the point.... We've found a local company who do stained glass, as we'd like to replace the cracked glass in our front door with a nice design. The panel itself is only 45cm x 30cm and originally they quoted me £835.00 (including vat and fitting) which after I was resuscitated I managed to email them and say "thanks but no thanks"... They then came back with a revised price of £500 (cash deal) but want the dreaded 50% deposit. I've tried to argue that I'm not getting anything for the £250.00 so why should I pay it but they argue if they make the panel and then we don't want it, they're stuck with it and that they even ask for a deposit for 6 figure jobs, which if I was them I'd do too !

So a. I'm struggling with the overall price of £500.00 for a very small window and b. the whole deposit thing is leaving me cold.... He assures me they're a family run trust worthy business, but I thought that about the joiner and look where that left me....

Does anyone have any advice ? Am I worrying too much ? Should I just cross my fingers and hope that it all ends well ? Is £500 excessive for a 30x45cm piece of stained glass ?

Paul.

 

[plasticpigeon]

The price seems quite high. There are quite a few stained glass craftspeople around. You should be able to shop about a bit. Not sure about deposit. I don't think I paid one when i had a big panel restored, but it is not toally unreasonable for a tradesperson to ask for one, although I think 50% is a lot. Where are you located. I am in Birmingham, a terrible place if you want to find a conservation based tradesperson, as nobody gives tuppence for conservation round here, but there are surprisingly quite a few stained glass craftspeople around, it seems to be one of he more popular traditional trades.

 

[Bogart]

When I built a house some years ago I soon realised one does not pay any tradesman up front. Most if they are any good will accept this. Paying for specialist materials is an exception, but not the labour. Now I deal solely in brown envelopes unless dealing with a business that likes the tax man. Whom I do not! Sorry but no idea re the cost of your glass but you can always ring people in other parts of the country for a price, getting comparisons is always handy.

 

[Damon]

Is there a possibility of paying by credit card?

In which case if they went under you could claim the money back from the credit card company?

Just a thought

 

[Flyfisher]

As with so many of these types of tradespeople, his terms were that he required a 50% deposit before the work could start.

That's not my experience. I've never been asked for a deposit. I've just had nearly £5k's worth of bespoke windows made and there was no discussion about a deposit. I have made stage payments for large bits of work (few tens of thousands) but even then it was understood that only completed work would be paid for so that if the builders never returned then I'd still have the full value for any money I'd paid. These arrangements were not because of any insistence on my part, it just seems the normal way to do business.

He assures me they're a family run trust worthy business, but I thought that about the joiner and look where that left me....

Assure him that you're a trustworthy customer :wink:

Ultimately it's your money so don't be coy when insisting on terms that you're comfortable with. If they don't accept then find someone else.

 

[88v8]

Bad luck. Very annoying.
Yes, the tax man taketh the first slice in a bankruptcy, then secured and trade creditors, then the rest. Same if one has shares and the company goes bust. When Speyhahawk went bust in 1992 we lost over £30k which was a lot at the time.

I too am having bespoke windows made, no deposit. Mind you, as I write, they're only eight weeks late and I can't help feeling that with a proper contract, deposit, penalty clause, they would have been done on time, but never mind.

In 1991, I had a number of stained glass panels made for our conservatory. No deposit.
Otoh, I can see why a tradesman might like a deposit for a bespoke item.

Our thatchers are going to get a 50% deposit for the re-ridge, but not until work begins.

Try someone else. Or if you really want to go with this designer, negotiate a lower deposit.
Credit card is also a good idea.

Ivor

 

[Socksitis]

It is a very difficult situation to be in. We had a roof done - lots of money. We paid a deposit up front and it was a nervous wait to see if they would turn up - they did, but they did go into liquidation 4 months in to the project, thankfully we did not lose any money, but a lesson learned. The next big spend is the kitchen and the kitchen company, which is a small family firm, want a large deposit, so worrying again, I am going to explore the use of a credit card, I have no idea how it works, but it may be useful. I would not entertain cash deals with anyone, there is too much at stake.

If you feel uncomfortable with the situation, walk away, there are other traders, you just need to look in a different place.

 

[Abi Cott]

The Consumer Credit Act is the piece of legislation you are looking for.

 

[Flyfisher]

Credit cards do indeed offer very good consumer protection, based on the principle that your contract is with the credit card company rather than the supplier, so if the supplier defaults then your claim is with the card company - which, of course, is highly unlikely to disappear overnight.

Unfortunately, because the credit card companies charge the supplier for every transaction (a few percent I believe) as well as rental of the card terminal, offering payment by credit card is a significant overhead for suppliers, which is why I think you'll be lucky to find small and family firms offering this method of payment.

 

[Anonymous]

Using a credit card would be my preferred option as I've used this to my advantage in the past (furniture company basically refused to deliver furniture that I'd paid for).
Problem is a lot of small and family run businesses don't have credit card services so it's bank transfer or cash essentially.

 

[LeeL82]

Unfortunately, because the credit card companies charge the supplier for every transaction (a few percent I believe) as well as rental of the card terminal, offering payment by credit card is a significant overhead for suppliers, which is why I think you'll be lucky to find small and family firms offering this method of payment.

Most small businesses also use PayPal, there's the option to pay via PayPal and tell them you'll include the 3% to cover there expenses also.

Edit: Sorry for the bump, only seen the date on this.

 

[Flyfisher]

Edit: Sorry for the bump, only seen the date on this.

I started reading this thread, formulating a reply as I went along, and then saw that I'd already replied, then noticed the date :lol:

Perhaps cre8tor could update us with what eventually happened?

 

[MatthewC]

Contrary to Flyfisher, when I read this thread and saw the date, I was surprised that I didn't respond to the thread earlier!

My view is that for a normal job, you pay nothing in advance except for any materials which are delivered to you, not the tradesman. Then for the labour you pay in retrospect promptly and as often as they want (I paid my plasterer weekly, on each Friday evening).

Even for a bespoke job, I don't like to pay in advance, based on the premise that they know exactly where I live! However, when I had some windows made I think I paid about a 10% deposit with the order - i.e. enough to prove that I am committed, but not enough to worry me seriously if they went bust. Again, after they were fitted, I paid at once.

Anyone who wants a 50% deposit for anything can go and whistle, unless they are the only such specialist within 250 miles... and I don't believe in paying cash - I pay tax so why shouldn't they?

 

[TheForge]

There seems to be a trend here between tradesmen asking for 50% deposits and tradesmen going bust...

 

[Flyfisher]

That's a good point. Any reputable tradesman would have credit accounts with their suppliers, so there's no good reason for them to be asking for cash up front for materials. Heck, even I've got a trade account at Jewson. They invoice me for anything I've ordered at the end of the month and I then have 30 days to pay, so if I get my timing right I don't have to pay for materials for two months. As for paying for their time, who has ever been paid for work in advance? Sorry, but asking for money up front would be a red flag for me.

 

[CliffordPope]

The safest thing to do for jobs involving purchase of a lot of expensive materials must surely be to have them delivered to your site? Also you can then keep an eye on them and see that they don't get re-routed to another job. Then pay labour costs and incidentals at approximately the rate at which you can monitor the progress.

I think in the world of really big contracts there's a way of bonding materials or fabrication work in progress still at the contractor's premises, so that it is legally the customer's?

 

[Socksitis]

There are some checks that can be made on some trades people, such as Company check, if they are a limited company, it doesn't take an accountant to look at the figures to see a firm may be in trouble. Google is a useful tool. Our roofers went bust, if I had gone with my gut instinct, the writing was on the wall.. Luckily we got the roof done by the company, but the scrabble for cash all the time and the mismatch of batches of slates was disappointing.
I would reiterate the use of a credit card where possible and also if your gut tells you no, go with it and find another company.