Passageway problems

[JoceAndChris]

Starting work on my old historic passage!

Thanks Mike and Abi for getting me up and running with pics again.

Here it is.

It’s about 2 metres below ground. The last two pics show the underlying plaster after I hacked off the blown gypsum.
The last pic shows what looks like roots! I’ve posted this on a Gardener’s forum and the consensus is it looks like old tree roots, rather than dry rot. Do people here agree? I really hope it isn’t dry rot.

I’m not sure how much more to hack off? Or what the best way is to proceed with an underground passage? Previous attempts to hold back the damp have been bitumen painted on the old lime plaster - I think - and lots of barrier type vinyl paint.


I think with just lime plaster and limewash it will be rather wet at times. I’m a bit uncertain what to do. Any thoughts gratefully appreciated!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hmm, that’s duplicated a number of pics and left some off.

 

[MikeG]

Roots? I thought that looked like the work of insects. Maybe ants.

It's the same advice every time.........hack off the offending plaster, let everything dry out, then plaster in lime (with fibre and chalk, not sand). Then ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.

 

[Mickey]

Mycelium as per our cupboard!? Loves damp and wood, not sure about behind plaster? I guess getting everything breathable is the best solution, our cupboard ended up like that due to leaking adjacent shower.

Mickey

 

[Kearn]

Is the door with a catflap external? If so, you could get some good airflow through the space. Our cellar is tricky as it now only has one external door with the internal blocked, so encouraging flow is less straightforward. But, once you've got all that modern muck off so it can breath, keeping the air moving is important.

Is there a need to replace the plaster underneath, assuming it is a) appropriate and b) in tact?

I'm intrigued as to what the building was and what the underground space was originally for? Looks like a very cool dpaceband those stone steps are lovely? Is there a plan for it?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Mike - thank you. I'm sure you must be right. I reckon they lived with damp down there and just kept on limewashing! If you have a second could you explain why not sand in the mix? Thanks.

Mickey - I have looked up mycelium now, thank you. That's interesting! I don't think it's that though. I could actually take one of these brown roots off, with tweezers! Looks like old dead ivy. It might be. There is natural light enough for ivy to grow. The house was dilapidated enough at one point, I think. Could well be the remnants of ivy.



Kearn - cellars are tricky aren't they? The cat shaped hole you see leads into our snug where the Rayburn is. It's a lovely vaulted room. I'll show you a pic. Because the house is built into a hill the front of the basement kitchens have windows, so there is natural light and ventilation. The snug leads into the old kitchen, and that leads onto a scullery, containing our well which is our water supply, and then more stone steps to the garden. The basement sections of the house were servant's areas. It isn't a grand or big house but one or two maids lived here, clearly. I've seen the changing names in the Census records of the early 20th century. The room that now has our Rayburn with the snug, had a range. The passage has a wine cellar leading off. The kitchen had a bread oven and a copper and cold storage, much of which is still there. The ground floor has a more formal feel with high ceilings, and decorative features that mimic a small country house feel. It was built for a very wealthy gentleman farmer, and it's in the Regency cottage ornee tradition with deliberate placement for high, long sweeping views into the sunset and across the Vale of Belvoir! It is at once breath-takingly romantic and the most maddening, impractical money-pit you could hope to find! I'm glad I got it listed though! It's unique and unmodernised.

And no, I don't really like replacing old plaster, if at all avoidable.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I can testify from personal experience that JoceandChris do not have a problem with a lack of ventilation in the house... :wink:

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol:

My poor frozen guests. It’s one of those houses where you don’t need to use a hair dryer ever.

It was worse though! Remember the hole in the dining room!

 

[MikeG]

Mike - thank you. I'm sure you must be right. I reckon they lived with damp down there and just kept on limewashing! If you have a second could you explain why not sand in the mix? Thanks.....

Sand and lime sets had and is inflexible. Whenever you hear anyone say "lime render/ plaster is flexible", they are talking about lime and chalk, or they don't know what they are talking about. Lime and sand can be repaired, and takes limewash nicely, but it doesn't flex like lime and chalk. A chunk of lime and chalk with hair wobbles about like an old carpet, whereas lime and sand is indistinguishable from sand and cement other than in colour.

 

[88v8]

Sand and lime sets had and is inflexible. Whenever you hear anyone say "lime render/ plaster is flexible", they are talking about lime and chalk, or they don't know what they are talking about. Lime and sand can be repaired, and takes limewash nicely, but it doesn't flex like lime and chalk. A chunk of lime and chalk with hair wobbles about like an old carpet, whereas lime and sand is indistinguishable from sand and cement other than in colour.

Chalk?
This is new. AFAIK we've always been referring to sand/lime mixes. Never chalk.
How much chalk and where to buy it? Lime suppliers don't seem to sell chalk except as a minor admix in putties.

Is it suitable for pointing? Or only renders?

In seeking flexibility I've used NHL2 in weak mixes. Is this futile?

More please.............

Ivor

 

[JoceAndChris]

This is all news to me as well! So I can expect cracks in my exterior lime render? The precious cement render was horribly cracked, and where cracked, water permeated, causing the dreaded damp! The new sand and lime mix has now been up 3 years and is looking good. The limewash has failed in parts ( we’re wind blasted on a hilltop!) proving that limewash really is sacrificial and does a protecting job whilst it’s up!

Interesting Mike!

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps the best render mix depends on the nature of the property and its propensity to move? Thus, stone buildings (such as Joce's) will likely move much less than a timber frame building. So a sand/lime render might be appropriate for a brick/stone building whereas a chalk/lime render would be appropriate for a timber frame building.

I profess no expertise and this is just from what I've read. E.g. "Analysis of traditional 16th Century plaster taken from timber frame buildings nearly always shows a high proportion of hair and chalk - and a complete absence of sand." from: http://www.anglialime.com/products/wet-mix-plasters-angliamix-mortars-renders

That same company also supplies sand/lime mixes as well, so I doubt the above is based on a bias towards a particular product being sold: http://www.anglialime.com/products/dry-ready-mix-mortars-renders-plasters

Perhaps, historically, the preferred mix was simply based on what was locally available? East Anglia has plenty of chalk so perhaps that was why it was used and it was just a happy accident that it resulted in a flexible render that perfectly suited the timber frame buildings also plentiful in East Anglia? Whatever their history, it would seem that lime/chalk renders and plasters (preferably with added hair) are probably technically better suited to substrates likely to move with the seasons such as timber frame buildings and lath-and-plaster walls and ceilings - and fortunately such materials are no longer geographically restricted.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That all sounds like it makes a lot of sense FF!

To be honest I think the main thing for the passageway is a breathable mix as I can’t see the building moving down there! Not unless there’s an earthquake in which case I don’t suppose the mix much matters, as anything would topple, given enough shaking.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Mike - thank you. I'm sure you must be right. I reckon they lived with damp down there and just kept on limewashing! If you have a second could you explain why not sand in the mix? Thanks.....

Sand and lime sets had and is inflexible. Whenever you hear anyone say "lime render/ plaster is flexible", they are talking about lime and chalk, or they don't know what they are talking about. Lime and sand can be repaired, and takes limewash nicely, but it doesn't flex like lime and chalk. A chunk of lime and chalk with hair wobbles about like an old carpet, whereas lime and sand is indistinguishable from sand and cement other than in colour.

That's not really true, and the preference for chalk over sand is historically down to local availability. If a masonry building flexes so much, and so regularly, that its coating needs to "wobble around like an old carpet" then there are underlying structural issues that need to be addressed before getting on to the recipe for the surface finish. In any case, flexibility is secondary to breathability.

 

[Me!]

Anglia lime have a Product Selector - http://www.anglialime.com/which-product

When I follow a route for a restoration product to render on brickwork I get to a sand based one, but when I go to a product to use on laths I get to chalk based.

 

[Owain]

The cat shaped hole you see leads into our snug where the Rayburn is.

I do like the cat hole. But isn't the ferret hole rather high up?

 

[JoceAndChris]

The cat shaped hole you see leads into our snug where the Rayburn is.

I do like the cat hole. But isn't the ferret hole rather high up?

:lol: that has brightened up my Monday morning!

I was lucky enough to get to play with a European pole cat a couple of summers ago. She was pale gold and she smelt of perfume. So so sweet. She was for sale and I was very tempted! Not sure what she would have added to the existing blood bath that goes on in this passageway as the cats drag in rats, rabbits, even poults sometimes. More of a blood bath probably!

 

[Kearn]

I'll show you a pic. Because the house is built into a hill the front of the basement kitchens have windows, so there is natural light and ventilation. The snug leads into the old kitchen, and that leads onto a scullery, containing our well which is our water supply, and then more stone steps to the garden. The basement sections of the house were servant's areas. It isn't a grand or big house but one or two maids lived here, clearly. I've seen the changing names in the Census records of the early 20th century. The room that now has our Rayburn with the snug, had a range. The passage has a wine cellar leading off. The kitchen had a bread oven and a copper and cold storage, much of which is still there.

this all sounds really brilliant - I do wish more of our home's iterations were still here, as it is we can only estimate and ponder with many things! photos would be great to see!