Part L single glazing issue - help!

[peter-3000]

Well, it is finally at the point where I have enough money to have new windows for all or most of my house. I have looked into having single glazing and have found a new way forward but need your help.

I live in a conservation area and currently have unsympathetic wooden double-glazed casement windows. I have photos from the last hundred years which show the original windows and how these looked.

I have looked very closely at the latest (2006) ODPM Conversation of Fuel and Power L1B Approved (not consultation document) that applies to existing dwellings. In the section ‘Other changes to the Regulations’ (the revised bits) it clearly states under ‘Exempt buildings and work’ that Regulation 9 is substantially altered and states that buildings that fall within paragraph 5, which include those in ‘a conservation area designated in accordance with section 69 of that Act’, do not apply to paragraph 3 which outlines the applications of the ‘energy efficiency requirement of these regulations’. This strongly suggests that dwellings in these areas now do not have to comply with part L regulations, which includes the use of double glazing. My understanding is that this is different to the earlier versions which only made reference to ‘historic’ buildings exempt, so putting the onus of the local authority to decide if such a building is exempt.

It seems that I am the only person to have spotted this (well it feels like it). I have checked with my local council's Development Control who disagree with this. They suggested over the phone that it would be unlikely for me to have single glazed windows as this a downgrade, despite me saying to them that there is no clause in the latest regulations about what existing windows you have in conservation area!! They have advised for me to put this in writing to consider, but I feel they are not taking me seriously (conservation seems to be at the bottom of their list - more worried about increased condensation rotting my windows- how the Victorians coped I don't know...?!)

I have checked with a couple of local joiners and they are unclear and have suggested I speak to my conservation officer. Even the FENSA registered one said this.

I feel authentic single glazed sashes would greatly enhance the conservation area (many have been lost lost recently) It seems easier to put UPV windows in than trying to be sensitive!

The added problem is that my local authority does not have a conservation officer, they have to get advice form the County Council's CO which further complicates things.

I am right, can I have single glazing? Can anyone offer advice on this? ANy help would be much appreciated.

 

[Gervase]

If you live in a Conservation Area which is subject to an Article 4 Directive, then you will need planning consent for any change of windows, and the planning officer - as opposed to the building control officer - should ensure that consent is only given to those changes that enhance the area. In other words, your new windows.
There is often a history of conflict between conservation and building control, and you may have found yourself the unwilling piggy-in-the-middle of some local authority turf war. I would certainly seek the conservation officer's advice, even if s/he is based with the country rather than district council. The opinion should carry some weight.
You can also argue that the approved document that makes up Part L1B is not holy writ - the only legal requirement is the bit written in green in the first page or so. The rest is merely interpretation, and it is open to any BCO to interpret as he or she thinks fit. Good luck!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

See page 16 of the approved document, section 0.9 and 0.10 - reinstatement of previously spoilt features of historic buildings is mentioned as a matter requiring a special approach.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADL1B_2006.pdf

 

[skier-hughes]

There is often a history of conflict between conservation and building control, and you may have found yourself the unwilling piggy-in-the-middle of some local authority turf war. I would certainly seek the conservation officer's advice, even if s/he is based with the country rather than district council. The opinion should carry some weight.
Good luck!

I tried all of this a couple of years ago. I'm not listed, but my CO wants it to be.
My CO was definately for fitting more sympathetic and Single Glazed windows, than the aluminium DG we have in most windows at the moment.
I applied to my BCO, who said no.
I asked my CO to have a word.
He did.
My BCO said give me some facts as to why you need them.
I did, including not just the aesthetics, but also how we'd ensure our house became more energy efficient, with upgrading the heating, fitting really thick curtains, loft insulation, the fact that wood would dissipate less heat out than aluminium etc etc.
My BCO said no.

In fact he did say, John Prescott said you have to have DG, DG you will have.

 

[Penners]

Gervase and Gareth have given you expert opinions on this.

The only additional (inexpert) suggestion I have is to take note what Graham has said about offering 'balancing' improvements to the house. If, in addition to following the advice from Gervase and Gareth, you can demonstrate to the BCO that you will improve the energy performance of the house in other ways, you may be able to get a more sympathetic hearing on the windows.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Peter-3000's in a Conservation Area, whereas I think Skier-Hughes isn't (neither of them are listed). This makes a difference as in S-H's case it comes down to the opinion of the CO whether the building is of sufficient interest to merit breaking the "rules" on double glazing, and then the COs strength of will in arguing it with Building Control.

The latest change to part L seems to have taken out (booh) the possibility (as in S-H's case) that there are "historic" buildings other than those that are listed or in conservation areas, rather than adding conservation areas into the potential exemptions.

 

[Joiner]

You are between two camps here and it sounds as if neither of them knows what they're talking about, which isn't surprising as there isn't a Conservation Officer in sight by the look of it.

As you intend to change the windows on all of the house you'll come within two regimes: Conservation AND Building Control. Conservation on the front of the house, Building Control on the back of the house - unless it can be seen from the road. (Article IV Directive areas can mist the waters somewhat, but we'll stick to the obvious for now, until you confirm your area's status in this regard.)

Basically, a Conservation Area is concerned with maintaining the look of the area, so it's concerned with the front of your house (or the back of the house if it can be seen from the road). In this case the CO has the power to over-rule Building Regs by citing the preservation of the "historical character" of the building, it's the most powerful phrase in the planning canon. The CO has the authority here. (It usually works the other way, people who want double-glazing being told that they can only have single-glazing.)

As to the back of your house... you'll need to conform to Regs (unless it can be seen from the road, see above).

FENSA registered fitters spend most of their time fitting upvc windows. I've been in the business for 40 years and never belonged to any so-called 'craft' organisation because they're a smoke-screen for cowboys to hide behind. Bear in mind that FENSA is a self-regulating organisation, with all that implies. As the bulk of my work is on older properties (repair and replication) I work closely with local conservation departments (in four counties) and EH, my work is inspected by the CO and often involves regular on-site visits and won't be signed-off until that CO is satisfied that the work has been carried out to specification and to standard. Likewise, as on the last job completed, which involved the replacement of nine hardwood double-glazed casement windows (£7,740) on the rear of a house in a Conservation Area (so having to conform to Regs), the work was done on notice, an inspection by BC prior to start of work and an inspection on completion before signing off. There is no question about the standard of my work because it's been inspected at every stage of the process. Not so FENSA. But regardless of FENSA registration or not, if it comes within the remit of Conservation then that department has to satisfied. If there is no Conservation Department then consult with English Heritage and get them on side, as you surely will.

 

[skier-hughes]

Peter-3000's in a Conservation Area, whereas I think Skier-Hughes isn't (neither of them are listed). This makes a difference as in S-H's case it comes down to the opinion of the CO whether the building is of sufficient interest to merit breaking the "rules" on double glazing, and then the COs strength of will in arguing it with Building Control.

The latest change to part L seems to have taken out (booh) the possibility (as in S-H's case) that there are "historic" buildings other than those that are listed or in conservation areas, rather than adding conservation areas into the potential exemptions.

True we are not in a conservation area.
But when the CO came round the first time his jaw dropped and he was amazed at what he saw. All of our beauty is inside, whereas the outside has changed so much that when listing was being done some time back, apparently the officer would have driven down, looked at the building and said, not worth it.
Our CO did argue long and hard, but our BCO was well...........
From my experience, having had a property in a conservation area previously and my house, it appears to be what's there now that swings most of the arguement, so DG now, DG remains, SG now a good chance of SG remainining.

 

[Flyfisher]

Am I the only one to find it a little ironic that when people try to do the right thing (for the building) they can fall foul of regulations if they go the official route, whereas in many cases I'd bet the changes could have just been done without any official involvement and no-one would have known.

I guess it depends on the property location and visibility (and attitude of neighbours) but there must be many properties where things like windows are changed and no one, except the owner, ever finds out.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

You are between two camps here and it sounds as if neither of them knows what they're talking about, which isn't surprising as there isn't a Conservation Officer in sight by the look of it.

As you intend to change the windows on all of the house you'll come within two regimes: Conservation AND Building Control. Conservation on the front of the house, Building Control on the back of the house - unless it can be seen from the road. (Article IV Directive areas can mist the waters somewhat, but we'll stick to the obvious for now, until you confirm your area's status in this regard.)

Basically, a Conservation Area is concerned with maintaining the look of the area, so it's concerned with the front of your house (or the back of the house if it can be seen from the road). In this case the CO has the power to over-rule Building Regs by citing the preservation of the "historical character" of the building, it's the most powerful phrase in the planning canon. The CO has the authority here. (It usually works the other way, people who want double-glazing being told that they can only have single-glazing.)

As to the back of your house... you'll need to conform to Regs (unless it can be seen from the road, see above).

FENSA registered fitters spend most of their time fitting upvc windows. I've been in the business for 40 years and never belonged to any so-called 'craft' organisation because they're a smoke-screen for cowboys to hide behind. Bear in mind that FENSA is a self-regulating organisation, with all that implies. As the bulk of my work is on older properties (repair and replication) I work closely with local conservation departments (in four counties) and EH, my work is inspected by the CO and often involves regular on-site visits and won't be signed-off until that CO is satisfied that the work has been carried out to specification and to standard. Likewise, as on the last job completed, which involved the replacement of nine hardwood double-glazed casement windows (£7,740) on the rear of a house in a Conservation Area (so having to conform to Regs), the work was done on notice, an inspection by BC prior to start of work and an inspection on completion before signing off. There is no question about the standard of my work because it's been inspected at every stage of the process. Not so FENSA. But regardless of FENSA registration or not, if it comes within the remit of Conservation then that department has to satisfied. If there is no Conservation Department then consult with English Heritage and get them on side, as you surely will.

Wrong on too many counts to enumerate. Hello again, OldCollier (as you were called last time you posted here)

 

[skier-hughes]

Am I the only one to find it a little ironic that when people try to do the right thing (for the building) they can fall foul of regulations if they go the official route, whereas in many cases I'd bet the changes could have just been done without any official involvement and no-one would have known.

I guess it depends on the property location and visibility (and attitude of neighbours) but there must be many properties where things like windows are changed and no one, except the owner, ever finds out.

True, 400m off the road, one nieghbour who probably made more changes to the house without permssion (being a farmer) I doubt anything would have come to notice for many years!!!!! Particualrly as I've planted more trees to hide us

 

[Joiner]

One thing, Peter 3000, if you're concerned about changing the inappropriate double-glazed casement windows and continue to have problems with those in power, you might consider retaining d-glazing using 14mm gas-filled units which will give you the same performance as 24mm units. The windows I referred to on that last job replicated the original (single-glazed) casements which in fact didn't conform to Regs, the only concern of BC being that the situation wasn't made worse for fire escape and that, together with the glazing performance, was the only significant factor in their book.

Irritatingly, this system won't allow me to upload an image of one of those windows.

I'll try again later and see if I can get my head around the procedure on here.

 

[peter-3000]

I feel I am a bit clearer. It feels like these building control officer get commission from double glazing companies, if I was in such a job I would not be so stubborn!

I did think about not letting them know as suggested earlier, but having spoken to a few joiners most will only do the work with a letter of permission. Also, I found on the council's website a pic of my house in an appraisal of the conservation area, which is ironic and cites a negative features of the area is the loss old windows etc!!!

It seems having looked into it further this is not a planning issue but a conservation/building control one. Still wiating for my CO's advice first.

The council's attitude has made me even more determined to fight, particularly when the new wording of the regs is so specific.

Frustratingly, a house at the end of my street (still in the conservation area) has just had PVC windows put in and they ripped out their original sashes, they did not even have to let the council know as it was done by a FENSA-certified firm. How ridiculous is that!

Any advice on if I am turned down by the building control officer, surely he does not have as much power as god. Any right of appeal or would another organisation such as English Heritage help?

 

[biffvernon]

Wrong on too many counts to enumerate.

:lol: I did quite like the account of FENSA, but I always get a sinking feeling when somebody mentions 'hardwood'. Do they mean oak or sweet chestnut, inwhich case why not say so, or do they mean something stolen from an orang utang?

 

[Penners]

there isn't a Conservation Officer in sight by the look of it.

You need to look harder. I can see two from where I'm sitting.

 

[Moo]

whereas in many cases I'd bet the changes could have just been done without any official involvement and no-one would have known..... there must be many properties where things like windows are changed and no one, except the owner, ever finds out.

I know of at least one where this happened. You can imagine my joy when I discovered that some of the placcy windows in son's house were terminally ill and I could have proper wooden sashes installed. When it came to choosing between single and double glazing I chose the former simply because it was cheaper. It didn't occur to me to ask permission and, years later, no-one has taken me to task for it.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well done. I also recall reading that building control have no retrospective powers after 4 years; can anyone confirm that? (Doesn't apply to listed properties, for which there is no time limit for enforcement, I believe).

 

[Joiner]

Thought so. Thanks for pointing them out!

Notice you didn't take me to task on where the errors were, Gareth.

And well spotted. Missed all the subsequent fall-out and ejections. Not a lot's changed since I first dropped out of this forum in 2007, having had a gut full of preciousness, only then it was 'Evelyn'. Try concentrating on the issues instead of trying to score points, more grown up.

 

[biffvernon]

Try concentrating on the issues instead of trying to score points, more grown up.

Meaning what, exactly?
And what sort of hardwood was it?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Thought so. Thanks for pointing them out!

Notice you didn't take me to task on where the errors were, Gareth.

And well spotted. Missed all the subsequent fall-out and ejections. Not a lot's changed since I first dropped out of this forum in 2007, having had a gut full of preciousness, only then it was 'Evelyn'. Try concentrating on the issues instead of trying to score points, more grown up.

If you don't like it here, why don't you go somewhere else? I'm sure there's a village that needs an idiot.
Your errors include, but are not limited to, your comment that there were no COs around here, and everything you said about what can and cannot be done (and who has the final say) with reagrds to windows in the front / back of unlisted buildings in conservation areas. Just because you've done it one way doesn't mean that the rules actaully agree with your version. So those are the issues, I'm not point scoring, just pointing out that you're wrong, and that your advice should not be followed.
"Preciousness" is not the characteristic that even her detractors would choose to describe Evelyn.