Pantiles on new roof

[88v8]

For our new garage I decided to go with pantiles rather than plains. Our PP was with plains, but as it was treated as a Planning rather than Conservation matter, I have taken the view that I can change it.
There is historic precedent for both - within the curtilage we have a brick outhouse with plains, and on the house we have an outshut with pantiles.

In the end, I wanted to limit the height of the garage, and the 35 degree slope of pantiles knocked 30" off the height. Also, it is easier to source reclaimed pantiles as there is no need for those pesky tiles & a halfs.

I have bought 850 pantiles, of which 725 will more than cover a roof that would have absorbed over 3,000 plains.
Oddly, to me, there are no nail holes, and this was common to most of the many batches of old pantiles I saw in the extensive salvage yard. Some of the nibs are pretty minimal, the thought of nothing but nib and gravity securing the tile is novel, to say the least. I have a sample of Scantoft's new conservation pantile, Arcadia, which is also holeless so this seems to be the norm.

Which brings me to a question... our builder, although a good chap is a generalist, so the detailing is up to me.
At the verge, our outshut, rebuilt 1993, has an undercloak of some sort with a cemented verge, cracked on one side.

The tiles on one side are whole. but on the other verge have been cut where they would roll off.
Is this the normal way to treat a pantile verge?

Ivor

Outshut verge on uncut side - could do with a plain tile undercloak and some gallets



The verge is just filled with cement (yes, plastic gutter, it's on the list)



Here are the cut tiles



and the (cracked) verge. Oddly enough, the cracked verge is to the north.



Left - reclaim we'll be using. Right - Sandtoft Arcadia

 

[middi]

Hi.
When pantiles are used one side of the gable will end up ( usually the right ) with the cupped side of the tile and, inevitably, the left side will end up with the upstand , Originally from Holland these " pantiles" were mainly used for barns and other outbuildings but slowly " emigrated " to replace worn thatch on lived in dwellings. Not an ideal solution because these original pantiles ( handmade ! ) were very draughty. Nowdays these tiles ( either used or new ) , and because of their aesthetic aspect, are used in conjunction with underfelt membranes plus insulation and therefore more suitable for living accommodation,
In and ideal world the roof span would be built to the correct dimension to accept these tiles so no cutting at the gables is required.
Also when these pantiles are/were used, the " undercloak " at the gables consisted of an oak plank recessed under the battens and protruding over the gables enough to accept the full tile and these pointed with lime mortar ( or cement as in the modern cases).
As long as the tiles are protruding over the gables by at least 50mm and well pointed they should be fine especially if a membrane is used and well fitted lapped over the vertical walls flat surface.

( ps. do not worry too much about the small nibs and no nail holes, these tiles are quite heavy and when the nib of the tile is over and beyond the batten they will not slide down )
Middi

 

[LadyArowana]

For a moment I thought it said "Panties on new roof"...... probably just me though....

 

[a twig]

Hi.
( ps. do not worry too much about the small nibs and no nail holes, these tiles are quite heavy and when the nib of the tile is over and beyond the batten they will not slide down )
Middi

Although when we had the storms, whenever there was a break in the gales I was up a ladder pushing the tiles back up into position on the roof... Hence getting rid of them and going for double Roman imminently

 

[philpjuk100]

Great to see middi on here again!

 

[Zebra]

For a moment I thought it said "Panties on new roof"...... probably just me though....

:lol: :lol: :lol:
And have you seen 88v8's other thread, where he asks about a sockaway?.....

 

[88v8]

In an ideal world the roof span would be built to the correct dimension to accept these tiles so no cutting at the gables is required.

Thankyou.
And so it can be. Tomorrow I'll pop to the salvage yard and collect sufficient tiles to make a whole row. I need to order the oak that's going to clad the exterior, and we can adjust the roof width by making a double gable. The gable boards would be oak so I could include them in the order.

Also when these pantiles are/were used, the " undercloak " at the gables consisted of an oak plank recessed under the battens and protruding over the gables enough to accept the full tile and these pointed with lime mortar.

I'd thought to make the undercloak with plain tiles so as to reduce the depth of mortar?

As long as the tiles are protruding over the gables by at least 50mm and well pointed they should be fine especially if a membrane is used and well fitted lapped over the vertical walls flat surface.

Yes, going to use membrane. The tiles on the outshut are so gappy I can't imagine why they don't leak, but they've been up there 21 years so I suppose the membrane is doing its job.
Should I lap it at the verge, behind the verge board? Or just where the tiles overhang the gutter?

Ivor

 

[middi]

You can certainly use plain tiles as undercloak ( oak plank undercloak was an earlier approach, then came plain tiles now prefabricated boards are used ).
If you want to use plain tiles as undercloak , just bed the tiles onto the gable with your chosen mortar bed. ( in order to do a neat job you may need to angle grind the gables end at the correct height for the undercloak tiles to fit neatly under the tile battens ).
Having bedded the tiles lay your membrane and then the battens 15 mm short from the outer edge of the undercloak tile.
Having laid all the pantiles just point the gable ends between the undercloak tiles and the underside of the outer edge of the pantiles forcing the mortar in the gap with a pointing trowel to be about 50mm in depth and at the same time trapping the membrane with mortar. Using plain tiles as undercloak is more traditional and a more aesthetic aspect than using the modern pre-fabricated boards.
As to the gutter end, just lay the membrane so it overruns into the gutter by about 25/30mm
Middi

Middi

 

[88v8]

Thankyou.
That sounds straightforward. Though no doubt I shall find some way to mess it up.

Picking out the tiles from the stacks this morning, I find we'll be laying at least two different lengths of tile. All are said to have come from the same roof, so I suppose it was repaired over the years with whatever came to hand. Most have no maker's mark, a few have a mark or name impressed into the face or the reverse.
Some even have nail holes and others have been holed through with a zax, one can see where the back is blown off around the hole.

It seems to me that one can't mix different lengths of pantile, at least not in the same row. Unless the squint corners can nestle, there'll be no overlap, and the tiles in the next row up will be pushed out of line. Therefore, we'll have to presort them and lay them in rows of the same size, perhaps even laying each row in turn and then battening the next row. Which means that the surplus I'm buying - around 20% - won't be as big a cushion as I'd thought.

Not so easy, this reclaimed tiles lark.

Anent my issues with no reclaim plain tile & halfs, was on a Council's website the other day where it said reclaims should be laid with a verge of half tiles to avoid the cogged effect. Not very secure, as has previously been commented.

Ivor

 

[Keithj]

When the roofers replaced our 1950s concrete tiles with Arcadia*, they insisted the builder fabricate an "extension" to the roof (a few inches wide) so that they could fit complete tiles without cutting. They explained to me that they could quite easily cut the tiles to fit the roof, but that the extension would provide a more durable and robust result. They did an excellent job in every other respect, so I hope they were right in that, too.

* I spoke to a local tile company long before this, explained what the house was, and that we were looking to replace the concrete tiles. He sent me a sample of each of the tiles from his website that we liked, and Arcadia that we hadn't mentioned. He was confident that when we saw them all, we'd choose Arcadia. He was right.

 

[Penners]

Not so easy, this reclaimed tiles lark.

No, it's not. And reclaimed pantiles are probably the most problematic of all. Pretty well every old clay pantile maker produced a slightly different size and shape, so unless you're lucky enough to buy an entire original batch, you can often find yourself palmed off with a right old mixture of sizes and pitches. This makes laying them a real headache.

 

[LadyArowana]

Oh dear, things not going well for our OP ? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...les-hurling-street-six-hour-stand-police.html

 

[a twig]

Shame you aren't up our neck of the woods, all our pantiles are off to the reclaim yard next week, as they are being replaced by double Romans, 'undreds an' 'undreds of 'em, all the same make, about 70% in reusable condition.

 

[Zebra]

And reclaimed pantiles are probably the most problematic of all.

To say nothing of reclaimed panties, which are even more problematic.

 

[Feltwell]

In the end, I wanted to limit the height of the garage, and the 35 degree slope of pantiles knocked 30" off the height. Also, it is easier to source reclaimed pantiles as there is no need for those pesky tiles & a halfs.

Very late to the party, but there's no issue with using plain tiles on a 35 degree roof slope. That is the shallowest recommended slope for most plains, but if you went with new ones some are rated as being ok at 30 degrees. I had to research this when I did my garage, height was a problem there too, ended up using reclaims at 35 degrees and they've been fine.

Tile and a halves are a pain, they are not impossible to find reclaimed (I found some in the end) but are difficult.

 

[Penners]

I thought it said "Panties on new roof"

So, Milady, what did you make of...

all our pantiles are off

 

[LadyArowana]

I thought it said "Panties on new roof"

So, Milady, what did you make of...

all our pantiles are off

I was up to speed with what we were discussing by then!

 

[Penners]

How dull.

 

[88v8]

...there's no issue with using plain tiles on a 35 degree roof slope.

Oh, didn't know that. (Add to list of things I didn't know I didn't know).
I like the look of pantiles, but there are 'issues'.

Here are some more pics of our outshut roof. This was rebuilt in 1993 under LA aegis, I have the sign-off.
It was rebuilt to make it wider.
In the process, the roof slope was reduced, I now measure, to 25 degrees. This seems to me quite bonkers.

At this end, the tiles sit well.



Nevertheless, there are a few holes, see the black membrane where the tiles (don't) meet at the corners.



By the time the tilers got to the far side, it must have been Friday afternoon. Towards the top/left, the tiles aren't really on speaking terms.



There are some huge gaps.



Nevertheless, it doesn't leak. I can only presume the membrane is keeping it out, and the battens haven't rotted because at the time they were treated with some oooer dangerous chemical that did what it was supposed to. No dubt the EU has now banned it.

Also, in the recent gales no tiles blew off, even though they are not nailed and the wind was from the South and could have removed the whole lot.
OTOH, the roof is quite low, little wind exposure.

So, it's a dreadful mess. But after 21 years it doesn't leak, which is after all the prime requirement of a roof. So, perhaps I shouldn't worry about the garage.
Hmmm.

Ivor

PS have just noticed when I load pics from Bucket, the forum software crops off the right-hand side. Hummph. Difficult, this computer lark.

 

[paulb33]

PS have just noticed when I load pics from Bucket, the forum software crops off the right-hand side. Hummph. Difficult, this computer lark.

Minor moan. This site uses very old technology, which makes photo loading ridiculously difficult.