Overzealous Plumber And Floor Joists

[jsmac]

Hello again,

The renovation of our house in Margate continues apace. In the process of having central heating installed (it never had any up until now) the plumber has rather unsympathetically cut through about 80% of a joist. The joist sits on the top of the cellar walls and runs from the front of the house to the rear. The cut closest to the rear wall is about 20cm from the wall. The lath and plaster walls for the first and ground floors are directly above this joist. To say that we are not best pleased about this development would be an understatement.

There are several other joists that have been notched quite aggressively (and unnecessarily) to accommodate pipes and we feel like it would be prudent to strengthen these.

What solutions have the PPUKers found for this type of problem? The notched pipes I presume could be braced with steel strips but the joist shown in the photos below is our biggest concern at the moment. Would any steel brace need to be cut into the rear wall with the joist?

I have contacted a couple of structural engineers but am waiting to hear back from them. Is it necessary to contact Building Control for this work?

As alway any thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Many thanks.

Scott

 

[Socksitis]

I would not be too happy about that. I am preventing our plumber from cutting into any joist as the electrician has done enough mouse holes. I have found a way around the problem of cutting through joists by having moulded skirting and running parallel to the joists. I just hope the plumber accepts my proposal. As to your problem, I think that needs some expert advice. There is always a solution to a problem - or so I keep telling myself!

 

[MikeG]

That's disgraceful. However, there is a stud to the right of the cut-out, and I would simply insert a new one to the left of the cut-out, so long as there is something sound that it can fit onto around floor level. You'll obviously need to take a bit more plaster off for this. That way the beam/plate will bear no weight on the notch.

It's an odd place for a horizontal member (in the east of England......different story in the west). Do you know what its purpose is? Is it perhaps an old window opening? If so, then it isn't doing anything structural anyway. I can't think of any reason you'd need to use any steel in making this good.

 

[jsmac]

Thank you for your thoughts.

The stud to the right of the cut is not structural. It runs down to the floor of the lower ground but is simply used to nail laths to. The floor at the bottom of the stairs shown is at ground level and there is a space under the stairs with lath walls. It's a bit difficult to explain clearly.

I've attached another photo that shows the view from the front door. There is a short flight of steps to get to the front door so the top of the walls of the lower ground floor are above ground level.

MikeG - I'm not sure that I follow your question. Is the horizontal member you refer to the joist?

Thanks again.

 

[MikeG]

.........MikeG - I'm not sure that I follow your question. Is the horizontal member the joist?.......

The horizontal member I am talking about is the one with the big cut out. It isn't a joist (which is part of a floor). It is either a plate, a beam, or maybe a cill. If the position of that plumber's work is at the foot of the stairs on the ground floor then I'm suggesting a simple fix by inserting an extra stud under the plate/ beam/ cill, just to the left of the cut-out.

Then I got curious as to what the original purpose of that piece of timber was, because one wouldn't normally expect a horizontal structural member half way up a storey in a close studded wall (as we get in the east). That's why I asked if it was perhaps the bottom of an old blocked up window.

 

[jsmac]

Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying.

The front living room is on the other side of that wall. Floorboards in that room sit on top of the plate/beam/cill/joist. Similarly, the boards making up the floor in the front hallway also sit on this plate/beam/cill/joist.

I had also assumed that it bears the weight of two storeys of lath and plaster wall above it. And since there is nothing underpinning it in the lower ground floor that this is potentially a very big problem. I would of course welcome any advice that this isn't the case.

The layout of the house is unusual. It is very ups and downsy with several small staircases going off in different directions which means that nearly every room has it's own floor.

Interestingly, we found an old blocked up window in the lower ground floor (I think I may have wrote about it in another post) that we intend on reinstating. A local carpenter and glazier is going to build us a window and glaze it with a piece of the original glass that is cracked and so too small to use in the sashes we are restoring.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ouch! From the photo it looks to me more like 95% of the beam has been cut through, though not all of it actually removed.

It's difficult to see what the real structural implications might be but my first thought was that it's a fairly hefty price of timber and was probably chosen as such for a good reason but has now been severely compromised. I'm no expert but like MikeG (who is) I'd be thinking about inserting a supporting stud underneath that beam to the left of the pipes and perhaps even adding additional support to the right of the pipes to restore the strength of support that was there before the plumbers did their worst.

But of course I can't see what's below that beam so that might be easier said than done.

 

[MikeG]

It scarcely needs saying, but I would show that tradesman the door immediately, and not allow him anywhere near any period property ever again if it were in my control.

 

[jsmac]

The damage was done several weeks ago and it still makes my blood boil when I think about how having made it clear over and over again that we didn't want to damage the integrity of the property they went ahead and bashed through whatever was in their way. I haven't even shown you the 10-inch Georgian floorboards that they crudely cut through with a circular saw despite us stating in no uncertain terms that any cuts, if they absolutely had to be made, must be discussed with us beforehand.

In fairness to him he has said that he would put right anything that we're not happy with (including paying for reclaimed floorboards that we've sourced and are certainly not inexpensive) but incredibly he doesn't seem to think that cutting through a joist in this manner is a big deal. Or perhaps he's maintaining that to us in the hope that we just go along with whatever fix he suggests.

 

[Flyfisher]

Did he do any work on this house?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43033511

 

[plasticpigeon]

The first tradespeople I had work in my house were like that. I continued to hope they would put things right but it just got worse, I had to pay them not to come back! I realise now that most tradespeople only care about their particular trade. "The gasman cometh" is exceedingly accurate.

 

[88v8]

Jeez, what a moron. So it's goodbye to that plumber.
This is what you can see; what's he doing that you can't see?

This is typical of most trades. They bash and crash, believing that they are indispensible and in the end you will just let them get on with it. I don't let anyone work on my house without that I'm there.

Now you see why we are so keen on DIY. I designed and installed two CH systems in our previous houses.
The second one was still working fine 29 years later. No need for a plumber. And I wasn't a tradesman, I was an office bod. If I could do it.....

Anyway, the beam.
The stud walls above will have their own internal braces, so the load will be distributed.
From the pics, I'd plate either side of the beam by bolting through.
A 6" x eighth plate 18" either side will do it. That's 18" either side of the notch. 3/8" bolts.
Put the plates alongside the bottom of the beam. They may have to be staggered so the one on the pipe side is up a bit higher. Allow for the pipe insulation that should be going onto all the underfloor pipes.
Looks as if you'll have to cut into the plaster to achieve the length.
Cover the plate on the plaster side with membrane so it doesn't rust where it's in contact with the plaster.

Other notchings... if near a support, less important. If nearer the middle of a beam, let in a steel plate over or under the pipes, depending whether notched from above or beneath.

Pipes should be drilled though woodwork, not notched into. That way, the strength can be virtually unimpaired. But it means more joints and takes longer, so plumbers can't be bothered.

Ivor

 

[jsmac]

Thanks, guys.

Bash and crash is certainly an apt description. We've pulled up a number of the boards that they pulled up (or simply cut out!) and in some cases they have notched over an old electrics hole so that now almost 50% of the joist has been compromised in that area. And they didn't even use those notches to put pipes into. Sigh.

Using steel plates on either side is what we'll do. However, we only have about 15 - 20cm to work with to the right of the right cut before we reach the rear wall of the lower ground floor. Hopefully this is adequate. Stripping off another 30cm or so of plaster on one side is annoying but straightforward enough, but we will have to lift several more floorboards and take off the skirting board on the other side, which I am a lot less pleased about. With all that we have to be getting on with we are deeply unimpressed that we're now having to pause to rectify some dimwit's mistake.

It probably won't surprise you that the plumber hasn't insulated any of the pipes even though Building Regs require it (unless I'm interpreting them incorrectly?). Page 20 of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/453968/domestic_building_services_compliance_guide.pdf

What insulation would you recommend?

Thanks again, everyone. Having this resource of advice and experience is invaluable.

Scott

 

[Tony.]

A thick wall climaflex insulation would be ok

 

[MikeG]

A thick wall climaflex insulation would be ok

Have a bag of zip-ties to hand.

 

[Minkeycat]

I think I would get it plated over with steel plating. I don't know the thickness to use but I always over-engineer things (not necessarily a good thing I know!). It reminds me of a renovation programme I saw a couple of years ago where plumbers had done the same to the beams holding a cantilevered landing which was now drooping. I don't remember the programme - I think it was a British Heritage restoration programme - but the solution the structural engineers came up with was to use steel plate over the gaps to reinforce the beams.

Good luck with it. Personally I think your plumbers should pay for the reinforcement work too once they've given you a doubtless flimsy excuse as to why that twas necessary.

 

[88v8]

Foam pipe lagging where there is room, felt otherwise. Felt is perhaps old hat nowadays. in which case what he said

Pipes should always be lagged. Unlagged pipe will lose a remarkable amount of heat. The heat should only be emerging where planned, ie the radiators.
Same goes for hot water pipes. Otherwise each time you turn on the Hot tap, there's a long wait. That wait has cost you money.

Ivor