OT - Period laptop advice needed

[Feltwell]

Here in Feltwell Towers, we have a reasnobly new Dell desktop running Windows 7 which I like rather a lot, it does seem much easier to use than XP. Elsewhere, my daughter has my old works laptop (a Dell Latitude D620 Intel Centrino Duo, about 5 years old) running Windows XP which is fine for what she uses it for, and my eldest son has an old Samsung X05 laptop which is the problem one - it's very slow, painfully so, and we're finding as he wants to do more with it that it's just not up to the job.

The question is what to replace his laptop with? (And before some wisecracker says "a book" - he does read a lot as well!)

A basic laptop will be fine, the question is really if it's worth spending out on a basic new laptop or if a cheaper secondhand one will do. Usage is pretty basic at the moment - watching things on iplayer and some basic gaming, plus web browsing. He's young enough that by the time he hits teenage years and wants to do more advanced things then whatever we buy now will be out of date anyway.

I quite like Dell computers, only on account of having had several and never having had a problem with them. I could get a new basic laptop from the Dell outlet store for around £360-ish. Although his school still runs XP & Office 2003, I'm tempted to get him a Windows 7 equipped machine with Office 2007 (which I've already got) as the school must upgrade at some point.

My daughter's Dell D620 would be fine for him, but would that sort of machine run much slower if using Windows 7 rather than XP? A similar secondhand machine like the one below would do the job fine, if it ran at a similar speed using Windows 7.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cheap-Del...t=UK_Computing_Laptops_EH&hash=item4164882a98

Opinions from those with techie knowledge would be appreciated!

 

[skier-hughes]

I'd start by reformatting, reinstalling windows, add the apps he wants to use and see if it is then suitable in terms of speed, a fresh install can often improve things dramatically.

I wouldn't by a second hand/used laptop.

I wouldn't upgrade an older laptop to win 7, you may find it hard to get working drivers.

 

[Feltwell]

Thanks Graham, but it's already had that - it was an old works machine and I got the IT department to clear it out completely and install XP from scratch, sorry I should have said that at the start. I think it's slow just because it's an old machine, and unlike the Dell laptop I think it was only a cheapie when it was new. So I'm not sure there's much can be done to speed it up.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've bought loads of Dell PCs over the years and never had any problems with them. Personally, I've never really liked laptops as I've always felt they are a compromise - smallish screen, hopeless mouse controls necessitating a separate mouse anyway, same for the keyboard, etc. so when I've needed a laptop I bought the smallest ones possible, usually Sony vaios, purely for having something while travelling on business. These days a smartphone could do most of what I used my business laptop for.

When my lad went to uni we were going to get him a laptop but when we considered things in more detail we ended up buying a Dell PC and a rather nice 24 inch screen. He now says it was the right choice because it's so much easier to work with. Plus, he has a smartphone for his mobile needs ( kids seem to go into a mild panic these days when forced to go offline :lol: ).

The other thing about PCs is that they are easier to upgrade and, of course, keyboards, mice and screens will generally outlive the basic PC anyway. My newest PC ( apart from FF jnr's) is over 5 years old and still running XP but is perfectly fast enough for all the usual stuff, plus photoshopping, video editing and 12-track music recording and editing.

I really think PCs are a mature product these days and when I buy my next one it'll be a pretty standard mid-spec machine, probably from Dell. My only quirk is that I do like to have more than one screen, but many standard PCs support that anyway these days.

One thing I have been converted to is an iPad. I bought Mrs FF one for christmas and although I thought it would be a bit of a toy I'm now thoroughly converted as it does 80% of what we want without having to even switch the PCs on and wait for them to boot up. It really is the perfect browsing tool and makes it so much easier to do quick stuff (like this!) during a tea break without firing up a PC.

None of which probably helps you decide what to get your son, but my tea is now finished so I'm back off outside. Sorry.

 

[Lime]

They didn't continue to put XP on laptops for nothing.
W7 consumes far more resources than XP.
Replacing XP on a laptop or desktop for W7 will bring about a considerable loss of speed if it will work at all.
(Most people I know who have changed their new laptop have changed W7 for XP!)
However IME the early middle-of-the-road laptops were grossly under powered and undersized compared to desktops and never performed well.

There are many good new W7 desktops on the market for little money.
Most have a good guarantee and are well built.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Our old laptops (including the one I'm typing this on) run Ubuntu Linux. It'll run on almost anything and performance on this machine is great, whereas it really struggled with Vista.

I was worried that the kids (9 and 12 now) would struggle as school is MS/Windows. Actually they manage fine - we browse with Firefox, email with Thunderbird and use Libre Office - the first two are platform independent and the latter is simliar enough to MS Office that they do fine.

So we have a multiplicity of Windows/Linux/Apple desktops, laptops, iPads, iPods and smartphones - and they seem to navigate between them with no troubles. In fact, exposing them to non-MS software is probably beneficial early on. It all networks wirelessly with the Windows 7 desktop which sas all the media files, so music and video watching is fine on any machine - as is iPlayer.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that if your eldest's needs are relatively basic, then have a think about spending nothing on a new laptop, and downlaod and burn a LiveCD for Ubuntu and see how you get on for a week or two. My guess is you'll wipe the Windows partition and install Ubuntu permanently and eke out another decade from your current "obsolete" machine.

 

[Lime]

Or JULinux8.
It's so easy to use too.

 

[Flyfisher]

I have a very old PC, a 600MHz P3 with 384K RAM, on which I installed Ubuntu as an experiment and it was a very serviceable web browser and email machine.

FW's comments about the school PCs running windows but the kids being fine with Linux is really how it should be with operating systems. They are a bit like a car engine - nobody wants to buy a car engine but it's a necessary part of a car, which what people actually do want, but it doesn't really matter if it's a petrol engine or diesel or electric or a hybrid, it's the functionality of the car that's important.

Thus, people don't buy a computer in order to run an operating system (well, some odd types might), they buy them to run applications such as word processors, spreadsheels, email and web browsers. It's taken quite a while but things are finally moving this way, hence the increasing importance of the likes of Google and the waning influence of Microsoft. International standards committees are also the unsung heroes of the IT world and are responsible to the wide variety of IT equipment being able to talk together on the same networks whether wired or wireless and they have successfully hidden some amazingly complex technology and made it all 'plug and play', which is precisely how things should be.

Of course, things can still sometimes go wrong but given the complexity underlying seemingly simple things that we now all take for granted, such as email and web browsing, it's a astonishing how far IT has advanced in such a short period of time.

 

[Me!]

I've tried installing Ubuntu and also SUSE on an old PC to extend its usable life. I agree that the download, installation and ease of use are all fine, but there were a few things that wouldn't work relating to watching video on Youtube and / or iPlayer. This was a while ago, but I seem to remember that it was java runtime and adobe flash player that were needed to make them work, and despite several attempts it completely defeated me trying to install them. Unlike a point and click Windows installation, it required various bits of command line hieroglyphics to try to create symbolic links between different bits of the file system. If anybody knows how to do this and can explain it in language that will be understood by PPUK forum readers, then some step by step instructions that will help us prolong our period PCs would be very beneficial to anyone who would like to try using Linux. Unfortunately, all the instructions I found on Linux forums assumed an existing level of knowledge that I for one will certainly never attain!

 

[Feltwell]

Thanks for all the advice, it's appreciated. I had a feeling that Windows 7 would be more demanding of machine than XP - typical, as it's much easier to setup and does genuinely seem to "plug & play". Ubuntu sounds more like an obscure African language than an OS! I can see the sense but it's probably not for me - I'm just really not at all interested in messing about with computers, I just like the damn things to work!

Having said that, I have got yet another laptop that I need to get out and have another go at. It's an Acer machine that was originally sold with Vista, which I have to say thoroughly deserves it's reputation for being cr@p. Part of it was corrupted and there were no re-install discs, so I decided to put XP on it. After an enormous struggle with hard disc drivers I've got XP to install, but it won't recognise the mouse or pick up wireless. I'll have another go at it and if it won't work then it might be an Ebay bargain for someone more competent with PC's than myself!

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Instructions? OK here goes:

1. Download installation disk for free: http://www.ubuntu.com/download (I wouldn't suggest Wubi which allows you to run it from within Windows)

2. Burn to a CD

3. Install CD (either as a full install, or run it from direct from disk without changing anything on your PC to trial it (which will run slower but is perfectly usable to try it out)

4. Installation is fully graphical and takes about 15 mnutes.

5. Hey presto - everything now works. I have been using the latest version for about 9 months now (it updates over t'internet everyday and a new version is released every 6 months in October and April) and have never used the command line - all the stuff is there (proprietary media codecs, Flash, wireless networking is easier than on my Windows machine, etc). A lot of effort has gone in in the last couple of years and there is genuine plug and play now - which is great for newbies. There are thousands of free apps installable right from the desktop graphical installer - no need to go searching for them. All major apps that you use on a daily basis will have a Linux version or equivalent.

Oh and it looks lovely too!

I really would suggest trying it out.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Ubuntu sounds more like an obscure African language than an OS! I can see the sense but it's probably not for me - I'm just really not at all interested in messing about with computers, I just like the damn things to work!

FW - see above. You install it and it just works. Out of the box. With a mouse. As easy (if not easier) than Windows. And it's free. Leaving money to be spent on real windows or other things in the house!

I'm not a zealot (honestly!) and in our multi-platform house I would rank in the following order for ease of use/beauty/It Just Damn Works:

1. Apple anything - iPad, iPod, iRon, etc.

2. Ubuntu.

3. Windows 7.

4. Windows XP.

100,005. The bl00dy Xbox - can I set the parental controls how I want them? Can I heck. We've only had it a week and I'm ready to throw it out. It is a great lesson in how not to design a user interface (surpassed only by Sky).

 

[Penners]

Thanks Graham, but it's already had that - it was an old works machine and I got the IT department to clear it out completely and install XP from scratch, sorry I should have said that at the start. I think it's slow just because it's an old machine, and unlike the Dell laptop I think it was only a cheapie when it was new. So I'm not sure there's much can be done to speed it up.

That's puzzling. AFAIK here is no hardware in a computer that intrinsically slows down with age. The reason they become slower over time is that they get clogged up with an overload of software, orphan files, registry glitches and so on. So, if the machine has its HDD reformatted and the original version of Windows reinstalled, it should run pretty much as quickly as the day it emerged from the factory.

Have you perhaps installed several heavy software packages that were designed to run on later versions of Windows? These could slow the machine down considerably.

Before you spend money on a new machine, have you considered adding more RAM to the old one? Depending on its current specification, this might make a substantial difference to its performance.

 

[LadyArowana]

I have a Dell laptop, it's pink, it's 4 1/2 years old. I am about to find out how it liked being in the hold of a plane for 13 hours. If the answer is that it didn't, I shall get a new one, that will be pink too. It appears that I buy laptops in the same manner that boys buy shoes. I wonder if this is a genetic thing?

 

[skier-hughes]

Having said that, I have got yet another laptop that I need to get out and have another go at. It's an Acer machine that was originally sold with Vista, which I have to say thoroughly deserves it's reputation for being cr@p. Part of it was corrupted and there were no re-install discs, so I decided to put XP on it. After an enormous struggle with hard disc drivers I've got XP to install, but it won't recognise the mouse or pick up wireless. I'll have another go at it and if it won't work then it might be an Ebay bargain for someone more competent with PC's than myself!

If you are passing by you could always just drop it off with me for a few days to sort out for you. Had this come in an email from Dabs, looks like a decent buy.

http://www.dabs.com/products/toshiba-satellite-pro-c660-21d-i3-370m-6gb-500gb-15-6--dvd-sm-w7hp-7RBS.html?utm_source=special+email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email080412&utm_content=ce00

 

[Feltwell]

Thanks Graham, but it's already had that - it was an old works machine and I got the IT department to clear it out completely and install XP from scratch, sorry I should have said that at the start. I think it's slow just because it's an old machine, and unlike the Dell laptop I think it was only a cheapie when it was new. So I'm not sure there's much can be done to speed it up.

That's puzzling. AFAIK here is no hardware in a computer that intrinsically slows down with age. The reason they become slower over time is that they get clogged up with an overload of software, orphan files, registry glitches and so on. So, if the machine has its HDD reformatted and the original version of Windows reinstalled, it should run pretty much as quickly as the day it emerged from the factory.

Have you perhaps installed several heavy software packages that were designed to run on later versions of Windows? These could slow the machine down considerably.

Hmm - possibly, it's got Windows XP Pro and Office 2007 on it, that's about it apart from a few old & basic kid's games. I suspect it's 2 things:-

- Our expectations increase. For example, I've just helped my father buy a 1970 Triumph Herald convertible, that's only done 19,000 miles and runs perfectly. It still feels very slow compared to a modern car, the brakes need a firm shove to stop it, it's noisy etc. It performs about as well as it did 40 years ago but the rest of the world has moved on.

- What we want to do with it has changed. The Herald can go on a motorway but it isn't it's natural environment. Maybe software coming out now isn't designed for that speed of laptop - my son wanted to put Angry Birds on it for example (which is stupidly addictive for anyone who hasn't seen it....) and it wouldn't run due to something to do with OpenGL and the graphics card????? Runs fine on the Dell laptop (also on XP) and on the modern desktop. I'm almost certainly showing the depth of my IT ignorance in saying that!

Ubuntu sounds more like an obscure African language than an OS! I can see the sense but it's probably not for me - I'm just really not at all interested in messing about with computers, I just like the damn things to work!

FW - see above. You install it and it just works. Out of the box.

Hmm. Could you get it onto a machine that's currently refusing to talk to t'interweb?

[If you are passing by you could always just drop it off with me for a few days to sort out for you.

That's a very generous offer, thank you Graham, and if I can't make any further progress I may just take you up on that. I need to sort it out - it was my father-in-law's laptop, although I think it only ever got used to play minesweeper! Since his death, to her great credit my mother-in-law has embraced the internet to help her independence.

They were a very old-fashioned couple considering they were only in their mid-60's - my father-in-law was very opposed to using Switch for paying for items for instance, much preferring to get my mother-in-law to carry a cheque book everywhere in her bag - he just didn't trust the new technology. The thought of internet banking was out of the question. Since his death however, my mother-in-law has realised (with a bit of gentle encouragement) that internet banking and online shopping is a great help to keep her independence, especially since she can't drive and has problems with her vision. Her desktop PC is truly ancient and is getting increasingly cranky, so to get this laptop back working again would help her out.

 

[Penners]

I have a Dell laptop, it's pink

Bad choice, Yer Ladyship. Pink ones can be quite unreliable.

 

[Flyfisher]

It appears that I buy laptops in the same manner that boys buy shoes.

I beg to differ Milady. I've never bought a pair of pink shoes in my entire life.

 

[Flyfisher]

That's puzzling. AFAIK here is no hardware in a computer that intrinsically slows down with age. The reason they become slower over time is that they get clogged up with an overload of software, orphan files, registry glitches and so on. So, if the machine has its HDD reformatted and the original version of Windows reinstalled, it should run pretty much as quickly as the day it emerged from the factory.

Quite so. The basic hardware won't slow down over time (well, unless it actually breaks). A complete reformat and reinstallation can, indeed, revitalise an elderly PC clogged up with loads of software (I'm beginning to know how it feels!).

But there is one other thing that can slow down a Windows PC and that's the enormous number of updates issued during the life of a particular version. During development, enormous effort is usually applied to stramlining the code for efficiency and performance. Unfortunately, bugs can still remain and these are fixed after release with 'patches' or updates. These updates may not be as rigorously implemented for performance and so, gradually, they have a detrimental effect.

So, yes, reformatting and reinstalling the original version of the OS delivered with the PC should certainly restore its original performance, but installing all the updates since the original release will then take a bit of the shine off the original speed. Still worth doing though.

 

[worms]

Our old laptops (including the one I'm typing this on) run Ubuntu Linux.

Same here and I would nowadays seriously consider it even on a new machine.

I've just been through the reinstall process for my daughter's machine and for some reason I am struggling to get it to speak to the BBC i-player. It tells me it needs a new version of Flash Player but the Adobe download page doesn't seem to play ball with the correct version. I have two other old laptops running Ubuntu which run iPlayer with no problems and everything else works a charm (despite starting off with a completely new un-formatted hard disk and having no drivers), so I think it is a problem with the Adobe site.