Only Getting Half the Message

[Sue Wilkinson]

I was talking to someone in the village yesterday. He asked me what I was doing. I told him I was waiting for the dubbing out layer of lime to dry out properly at the bottom of a wall I'm repairing for someone. The wall was wet, and the owner unwilling to wait any longer than the 4 weeks I managed to make him wait, so I had to carry on. The man I was talking to said, didn't you paint the wall with PVA before you started with the lime?

I tried to explain, but no, he is right, he has to be, he's a man. It stopped the damp in his house afterall. What I want to do is strip the walls, PVA them, then used lime plaster (I suspect hydrated) and then paint with normal emulsions!!!!

But I can't possibly be right can I? Afterall, I'm a woman. Grrr. :evil:

Sue

 

[skier-hughes]

But I can't possibly be right can I? Afterall, I'm a woman. Grrr. :evil:

Sue

At least you know your place................










Runs for cover :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Gervase]

Aye, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.
I'm working on a job at the moment with two expat Essex lads, a father and son building team, and their views on lime are barely printable.

"I dunno why they specified all this f***ing sh*t; what's wrong with f***ing cement?" is an almost daily mantra, along with the classic: "Why the f*** can't these stupid f***ing clients use traditional methods, not this new-fangled lime sh*it?"

Still, there was an almost damascene moment a week or so back when I stabilised a wall using a strongly hydraulic lime.

"'kin'ell, it really does work!" said the older of the two geezers, prodding the stuff with his finger. "Mind you, I still prefer the traditional ways."

*sigh*

 

[Penners]

I tried to explain, but no, he is right, he has to be, he's a man... But I can't possibly be right can I? Afterall, I'm a woman. Grrr.

I'm not clear what your gender - and his - have to do with this. People are either dogmatic or they're not.

 

[Lynn]

I tried to explain, but no, he is right, he has to be, he's a man... But I can't possibly be right can I? Afterall, I'm a woman. Grrr.

I'm not clear what your gender - and his - have to do with this. People are either dogmatic or they're not.

Oh give me strength...

 

[Penners]

Oh give me strength...

Meaning...?

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

Penners, you would know what I meant if you met the man. He's not known for his meek personality shall we say.

Sue

 

[BMcD]

Maybe next time he asks you what you're doing, reply
"I'm doing my nails so I can look pretty. Will you buy me a nice Barretts Home to live in?" And perhaps a flutter of the eyelashes

 

[Lynn]

Oh give me strength...

Meaning...?

Sorry...something my mom would say when exasperated.

Clearly when women step out of gender roles it causes problems. I have worked in construction site erosion control and as a matter of routine chased bulldozer drivers out of their cabs to get the grading right. I have run this gauntlet and her story is familiar. I can offer tips on successful communication if there is interest.

 

[Moo]

I agree with Penners.

99% of people in the building trades are men. I'm pretty sure that if it were the other way round, you'd find exactly the same resistance to 'new' ideas.

 

[Penners]

Penners, you would know what I meant if you met the man. He's not known for his meek personality shall we say.
Sue

Sue - I don't question your judgement of the man for one second. But my reponse above perhaps reflected a certain frustration with the confusion of pigheaded ignorance and gender bias.

We've all met his type, and it's arguable that the building industry has more than its fair share. But I suppose I tend to get a bit resentful when a situation like that prompts the "Men! Typical!" response in women.

There are as many variations in the character of men as there are in women - don't you think?

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

There are as many variations in the character of men as there are in women - don't you think?

Of course there are, but you can't imagine the number of times I've come across this anti-traditional methods stuff exacerbated by me being a woman and not a trained builder. I think some men feel that the building trades are their domain and they hate the intrusion. I've had quiet arguements with a number of men in this village over the past few years about lime and the suitability of cement. Eventually they get ratty and resort to throwing verbal qualifications at me or some such thing. One man even saying he was right and he'd got the indentures to proove it. But he embroiders the truth on lots of things, so I just laughed.

Most of the time I don't argue, but sometimes I get wracked off about it and I do take up the gauntlet, especially when I feel that someone is going to do damage to something precious and old or they make their comments with a "there, there little girl" type of smug look on their faces as PVA man did. Or if I'm talking to someone who is interested in knowing more and may become a client for me and someone else comes up to join in the conversation and verbally abuses my opinions in front of them. That happens more than it should.

This particular man who told me to PVA the walls before lime plastering them currently has a planning application in that is so extensive and potentially damaging to the quiet dead-end lane we live in, that his arrogance is there for all to see. He is so sure he'll win the planning consent that he's already starting to cut down hedges etc in his garden.

I also used to work as in inspector for Severn Trent Water, the only women inspector in the company at the time. I am well used to being rubbished by men because of my gender. I have never publically rubbished a man because he can't do something I can. If women didn't say "men, typical!" from time to time we would start to loose our confidence.

The final example; yesterday I was outside my property working on my garden wall. A convertable car stops and a well dressed middle aged couple got out and walked over to the farm opposite to admire the restoration works. On the way back the man stoped and asked me what I was doing. He then, in quite a lot of detail, proceeded to tell me that if I carried on as I was doing then the wall would simply fall down again. I didn't ask his advice, I only smiled and passed the time of day with a stranger to the village. My confidence was knocked and I was made to feel stupid. Yet I have taken a lot of advice from people here about how to build up my collapsed wall, and advice from a local trusted builder who has helped me to get going.

Anyway, I don't have to justify myself, but I wanted to at least try in case you had taken umbridge over my post. Its rather hard being a limey, just look at Gervase's post I read yesterday about the Essex boys, but its even harder if you are female. Even Marianne Suhr, with her looks and youth, will be poo pooed in certain circles. She has simply become distanced from it by her rising profile due to TV, SPAB etc.

Sue

 

[middi]

Sue, I detect I hint of a personal crusade here for the acceptance of the female specie to gain accolade from the other half in what is considered to be a male dominated industry. ( Reaffirmed by men of course).

Those men you have met which have "rubbed you up" the wrong way are still hanging on strongly to their pool of genes which they inherited from their caveman forefarhers and therefore totally excused for making comments which has got your back up.

So, carry on the good work and tell them to P**s off.

 

[Lynn]

Those men you have met which have "rubbed you up" the wrong way are still hanging on strongly to their pool of genes which they inherited from their caveman forefarhers and therefore totally excused for making comments which has got your back up.

So, carry on the good work and tell them to P**s off.

I suggest we all hit the decks in anticipation of renewed fire... :roll:

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

Yep! That was rather controversial of Middi, but heartfelt. :wink:

I'm off out to the barn, safer out there.

Sue

 

[Gervase]

Seriously, Sue, in your position I'd be tempted to practise the phrase "F*** off you clueless dinosaur; is it any wonder that people like me have to step in to undo your cock-ups?" in front of the bathroom mirror until I could inject just the right amount of scathing contempt, and then let rip the next time some eejit tries to be patronising!

But you're probably too nice a person to go down that road. So instead you could invest some of that hard-earned cash in "Building with Lime" by Stafford Holmes and Michael Wingate. It will arm you with enough technical ammunition to floor the next smart-arse who tries to put you down. And, by the way, it's far and away the best book currently in print on lime. It really does what it says on the cover!

Either way, good luck!

 

[NT]

> My confidence was knocked and I was made to feel stupid.

This is something we all have to deal with in life, women on building sites more than men, but we all face this one. Imho there are 2 ways to aproach it:

1. Do nothing about it, and go through life at the mercy of others approval. This is a common approach, if a painful one.

2. Change the way we ourselves react to these situations, so they become water of a ducks back. The key is to realise that if I feel like that, its _my_ reaction to their words. Feelings follow from beliefs, and it is a persons beliefs that are the root cause of the hurt. We can spend our entire lives blaming others, but they are our own reactions, not anyone else's.

So how does one change such reactions? By being clear about the facts, and understanding why others do & say what they do. People react badly when they doubt what theyre doing and believe, so look at what doubts such comments bring up and confirm the facts. Feeling stupid, foolish, all these are mistaken thoughts that can be clarified.

Or spend your life being a victim - its easier, but painful.


Why not, an example:

a: youre doing that all wrong, you should be doing xyz
b: hmm, I'm not sure, maybe he's right, and maybe I'm a fool. I've always suspected that might be the case, oh no, how stupid I feel.
Reaction: boohoo, maybe I really am a stupid fool.

or:

a: youre doing that all wrong, you should be doing xyz
b: I've read up on that approach as well as what Im doing, and I know the reasons why Im doing this not that. I know what Im doing. I also know I will get it wrong now and then, and accept 10% failure / 90% success rate as pretty good. Its no big if I have to redo something occasionally. I can also see a's saying this because he doesnt know the relative merits of each option, he only knows half the picture.
Reaction: shrug.


NT

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

Thanks Gervase, it does happen a lot and I do get my confidence knocked. I've looked for a good book that will take my knowledge on further than the couple of books I have so far. That recommendation looks good to me.

I've just ordered a copy from Amazon. When I arrived on the page to view the details there were 2 copies available. By the time I'd decided to buy it there was only 1, so I suspect your posting has just caused a little flurry of interest there that will puzzle Amazon.

Sue

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

NT thanks, I'm bad, but not that bad though honestly! I do try to please everyone else first, so that does leave me at the mercy of some people. I do doubt what I'm doing until I've done it successfully once, but then I'm OK. Building something from scratch is a new one for me, hence the doubts. But I've checked the bit of wall today and its drying nicely and hasn't collapsed.

Its also quite hard living in a small village. I have to get on with the neighbours because it is small and a lot of joint socialising is done. But I am aware that I back down too easily because I don't like confrontation. But I also know that I understand more about this sort of thing than anyone else in the village. Its swings and roundabouts, because its small everyone knows everyone else and therefore takes an interest and feels free to give an opinion on everything.

 

[Gervase]

Living in a small village can have its benefits, though. Once your work gets known, you'll become the resident expert, and (hopefully) your neighbours will feel a sort of pride by association, to the extent that they'll recommend you and take a pop at any stranger who has the temerity to question what you're doing.

Being prepared to bore all and sundry to death on the merits of breathable buildings, and offering unsolicited and trenchant opinions on ghastly conversions and restorations in neighbouring villages helps in that process.

I'm in a similar position, and I find it uncanny how everyone here knows exactly what job I'm working on, where I'm working next and what the dog had for breakfast. it does mean, though, that I get work simply because someone told someone who told someone who...

It does all take time, but it sounds as though you're already a good few steps down the road to being your local 'guru'. It will happen, but you won't realise it's happened for a while, and then you'll wonder what happend to all the smart-arses!