OLD PROPERTY WITH NO LOFT HATCH / ACCESS TO ROOF AREA - HELP

[JulieandRoss]

We are in the midst of purchasing a 200 year old cottage which has no loft access. The surveyor has told us that they will not be able to tell us much about whats happening up there! Should we still buy? Is it likely there will be a problem up there? What could be wrong? How bad could it be? We know the vendor will not organise having a loft hatch put in before we buy as the property is priced fairly low because of various other problems. Please help! Many thanks, Ross

 

[Schoolmarm]

It might be better that nobody has had access. Could you get a statement off them sent to your solicitor to assure you that there has been no spray foam been used on the underside of the slates?

How many years have they lived there with no access?

 

[Nemesis]

Look at the roof and see if that looks OK. If so then it's probable that there's not a lot wrong with the timbers.

In general they are so massive on old properties that little goes wrong, woodworm etc might nibble a bit but it's been there 200 years it's likely to be there a few more.

If you can get it at a reasonable price and have some spare cash to fix things, don't expect it all to be done in a week, and you really want it, I wouldn't let the lack of access put you off.

 

[stickybeak]

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[Nemesis]

Yes, really, a fountain in the garden will help to decide if the loft access is the problem!

Eh?

And no it won't qualify for automatic listing. Nothing is 'automatic' about listing.

And yes many places have no loft access. The roof will have been done externally. The loft area may be very small, and ceiling joists not designed to take any weight. In some places there may have been no ceiling originally.

Staff quarters? It's a bloody cottage!

 

[stickybeak]

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[Nemesis]

Mine's called a cottage, in the name, but I don't think many would consider it is. However, in all probability the OP has described it correctly. Most places with access don't tend to have it removed.

A fountain in the garden is no guide to roof structure.

And yes as you know I do have some idea of listing. The theory and reality are at times at odds with each other.

And no it's not automatic and mine isn't listed either.

It's bloody hard to get something listed. And not relevant to the query really.

 

[stickybeak]

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[chuckey]

I would go for a walk around the property to make a note of the general condition of the roof. For instance is the ridge line "bumpy", are the ridge tiles original? are the flashings OK, are the stacks missing mortar?
Then armed with your notes, tour the locality and compare your roof with others on properties of the same style and age. If there are a few cottages roofed like yours, then it a good bet that your roof will be adequate. However if cottages of your style have all been re-reroofed it a good bet your roof is on its last legs too.
Loft traps are a cinch to put in, the biggest problem is the muck that comes down when you cut the hole.
Frank

 

[Penners]

Stickybeak - do you know something that you haven't revealed to the rest of us?

How exactly are things like built-in bookcases, name of (long-dead) architect, existence of game larder, dado rails (to quote just a few of your "basic details") going to reveal whether there are any problems in the closed-off loft?

Surely the postman's inside leg measurement would be just as helpful.

 

[Nemesis]

And how the f*£$ is the listing description going to help assess the timbers inside the roof space?

 

[Gervase]

The list smacks of the tick-boxes most surveyors use - full of verbiage but bloody useless for the matter in hand.
Unless the surveyor actually knows about old buildings, chances are that you'd learn nothing useful from the report, even if s/he did actually manage to peer into the loft space (which, in itself, would be conduct above and beyond for many of 'em!).

Any chance of a picture of the place, or a link to a pic on the estate agent's website?

 

[stickybeak]

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[Nemesis]

Gentle suggestion.

Know what you are talking about before posting.

And if, as your list, there was no roof, loft access would hardly be a problem.

 

[Tom]

Here's what English Heritage say
"The older and rarer a building is, the more likely it is to be listed. All buildings built before 1700 which survive in anything like their original condition are listed, as are most built between 1700 and 1840".

Wrong! That may be the intent but it's not the truth!

Jaqy

 

[pandora]

Look at the roof and see if that looks OK. If so then it's probable that there's not a lot wrong with the timbers.

In general they are so massive on old properties that little goes wrong

Nice theory. Our house is a 16th C Grade II listed cottage with beautiful massive timbers where you can see them. Unfortunately for us the one bit of the house which had had the ceiling clad in asbestos was also the bit that were a previous occupant had cut through the purlins, leaving them about a foot short. They had retiled the roof using the old tiles and then tile hung the external wall. It is very pretty, but completely structurally unsound. Since we discovered this we have spent rather large quantities of cash on inserting longer oak purlins and helping the rest of the roof by strengthening it so it will stand for decades more.

The first thing many people say when we tell them this is 'did you have a proper structural survey done?' and the answer is 'yes.' The next thing they say is 'well your surveyor must have been rubbish.' Our surveyor was my father - an MRICS surveyor. His comments were that no surveyor has xray vision, and you can't just go bashing holes in houses you are looking at. You cross your fingers and hope.

In our case it has all turned out well in the end. Work we would have done in a year or two has been brought forward and we've realised it is for the better. It was just rather a surprise to start with to find nothing was holding the gable wall on - good job we had included a contingency fund in our renovation budget!

 

[Nemesis]

Which is what I suggested - ensure you have some spare cash just in case.

No, you can't have X ray vision, but in general older properties have sturdy timbers.

It's the chance you take.

So much, of course, depends on an individual property regarding complexity of roof structure. And in general a sound repair to an existing sturdy design of roof structure, if done properly, I can't see needs extra strengthening added.

 

[Penners]

It's the chance you take.

Quite so. And you take a thousand chances whenever you buy a house - old or new. Your surveyor can't see everything, like the foundations, inside the walls, much of the plumbing, most of the wiring... and so on.

And what he/she can't see might - just might - be a load of problems.

But you just happen to be very aware of this one.

Ultimately you can do no more than go with your best judgement, and - as Nemesis says - have a bit of a sinking fund in case of problems.

Personally, I would never let a worry about something that might not exist put me off buying a house that I really wanted.

 

[Anna]

If you are getting an electrician's report, perhaps they can comment if there is wiring up there & its condition. That might give a clue to if the roof space has been accessed in the last 20/30/...100 years. (Obviously aside from if you know that it's been re-roofed.)

If there's no wiring in the attic for upstairs ceiling lights, but lower floors do have them, then maybe its one clue that the attic hasn't been accessed in a long time so there hopefully isn't any spray foam or bodged diy?

6 years after buying our house with no loft access, we finally got a hatch put in. What it had hidden:
HUGE amounts of rubble weighing down the ceilings.
Really wormy timbers, most of which seem still structurally sound. I imagine that if we wanted to sell, then they'd cause no end of hassle, so I'd be tempted to block the hatch back up, assuming that's legal of course....
Very old wiring for the upstairs ceiling pendant lights, the final confirmation that we really do need complete rewiring.

That said I think we still did the right thing in buying. Good luck to you!

 

[shelli]

Look at the roof and see if that looks OK. If so then it's probable that there's not a lot wrong with the timbers.

In general they are so massive on old properties that little goes wrong, woodworm etc might nibble a bit but it's been there 200 years it's likely to be there a few more.

If you can get it at a reasonable price and have some spare cash to fix things, don't expect it all to be done in a week, and you really want it, I wouldn't let the lack of access put you off.

Have to disagree with this view Nem - the roof of the house we bought 7 months ago had been so badly "nibbled" by woodworm that several purlins were no longer fit for purpose - all battens were munched too - in addition slates were severely deteriorated - many were crumbly. Also previous botched roof repairs had been carried out and enormous amounts of back pointing had been allowed to drop onto roof insulation putting a lot of weight on lath ceilings.

given that if you carry out major repairs you will probably start from the top down - you should at least find out if you are up for a £15-25,000.00 roof bill -

NB if repairs to roof have all been carried out from exterior I would def want a look up there as roofers can be very untidy - I would try and get up onto roof in your position.

Sorry - but you should put yourselves in the picture.

Shelli