offtopic - non-period toilet cistern

[piper]

Sorry to be off-topic, but this is the only Forum I belong to, and there are lots of experts out there.
We have an en-suite shower room, added to an existing bedroom four years ago, where I decided to have one of those very non-Period hang-off-the-wall toilets with a concealed cistern - actually very useful in a period house, where the floor slopes so much that getting a conventional toilet level would be quite tricky.
Here's a picture.
I'm actually quite pleased with the design of this room, in that it combines both modern and period styles, with white tiling and random-width T&G boarded panelling covering the walls (thanks to my nearish neighbour Andrew Bodenham on the Forum for the advice there!). Most of the work was done by the builders, tiler, plumber etc. though I did the T&G panelling, and now I'm finally getting round to my original plan of fitting a Honister Green Slate shelf over the cistern. My concern is that I think it should be removable in case access is required to the cistern if anything goes wrong. Are those concealed cisterns accessed entirely through the front panel, in which case I don't need to worry, or it it OK to stick the shelf down with mastic, which I suppose could be cut through with a knife, and the shelf got off - though with a certain amount of difficulty? The narrow section of the shelf, which will be made in one piece of slate, would be very easily broken.
Any advice from people experienced in such plumbing matters would be welcome.
I've made the plywood template, with a nice curve joining the wide and narrow bits, and will take it up to Honister soon. Honister slate mine is a remarkable place, and its revival is an inspiring story. It needs all the support it can get after Mark Weir's untimely death. The website may look a bit funfairish in places, but I'm all for their ongoing campaign to keep "real" industry and jobs in the Lake District. We already have a hearth in a very beautiful shade of Honister green, much nicer than the plain examples on their website. Incidentally, this is the new room's lime-plastered chimney breast I posted about recently, when I was recommending clay paint.

 

[DJH]

In my experience Piper, nothing needs doing on concealed cisterns until they are boxed in with a decorative finish such as you are going to do. I suspect that you need top access to your cistern in order to service the float valve and, after many years, maybe to change the siphon washer.

When I covered in mine I tiled the ply shelf and held it in place with those magnet thingys. That wouldn't work for you but how about a couple of chrome headed mirror
screws?
The slate will look very good as a shelf there.

 

[tobydog]

Piper - for my sins I used to have a brand new house. It had a toilet set up just like your with the small front panel. I had problems with the cistern during the snagging period and the builders accessed the whole thing with no problem although the issue was just one of adjustment. Just as well because they had already sealed down the shelf above. I never did feel comfortable that if more complex work was involved, like a replacement cistern, that it could be carried out through the front panel. The shelf above was granite and fixings not intended to be temporary. Given the same situation again I would have a temporary fixing.

 

[Flyfisher]

All I can suggest is to be very sure that the cistern really is properly installed and set up.

Some background here: http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13185

 

[robgil]

For what it's worth they are a real PITA, if you cannot get proper access not only will a plumber charge you more to work on it if it leaks, it will also make a huge mess because you have to faff around to find the service valve to shut the thing down.

 

[piper]

In my experience Piper, nothing needs doing on concealed cisterns until they are boxed in with a decorative finish such as you are going to do.

All I can suggest is to be very sure that the cistern really is properly installed and set up.
Some background here: http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13185

(Horror stories of back-syphoning)

For what it's worth they are a real PITA

Well, thanks for the encouraging replies, guys!

As I said, it's been four years and no problems yet, but of course it's just waiting until I make it difficult to get at.
Flyfisher, the job was done as part of our extension works by a good local building firm who employ very competent tradesmen, including decent plumbers - but perhaps I won't try the blue cleaner test. Sometimes it's better to remain ignorant!
Robgil, the water supply to the whole ensuite can easily be turned off. The room is so small that this very narrow built-in cistern seemed a good idea at the time.
So, given the fact that we've got the thing installed, does anyone have any contructive suggestions beside DJH's mirror screws? I might go for that solution, though I had wanted a completely clean surface. Maybe the slate could just be rested on some sort of rubber/plastic strip rather than actually stuck with mastic? Maybe kept in place with a screwed wooden moulding at each end, though it should be heavy enough not to move. Or should I abandon the slate and have a nicely polished oak shelf with brass screws? That would cost a lot less, and the bespoke shaped green slate is expensive, so I don't want to risk breaking it if it ever has to be taken off for cistern maintenance.

 

[Lime]

I think a piece of slate that long and that shape is asking to be broken the first time it is taken off.
The weight of the slate will cause a fracture at the centre junction between the two different-sized shelves.
I vote for an oak shelf with countersunk slotted screws and cup washers.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/hardware/page.aspx?c=&cat=3,41306,41316&p=47230

Have you considered extending the wider shelf over the hand basin area?
i.e. so the shelf is the same size/width the whole length.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Hi Piper,

That room's looking good now! I think that a green slate top would be just the thing, and very good for splashes near the basin. I do think it needs to be readily removable, because there's never been a toilet cistern in the entire history of the world which hasn't needed maintenance at some time, and it's so much easier to go in from above (it's also the only way that the flush valve and filling valve (if bottom mounted) will come out).

It is a slender shape, and I'd feel twitchy about the strength of it at the transition between the two different widths. Why not simply make it in two pieces? An honest joint at the section change would look ok, especially if the edges were chamfered a little to conceal any minor misalignment. Given the location it isn't going to be regularly wetted, so there's not a requirement for it to be water-tight. And I feel that it would look right too - most practically minded people would expect the 'lid' over a cistern to be removable and a visible joint communicates that.

As for keeping it in place I'd avoid any visible fixing if at all possible. As you say, these are heavy bits of stone and won't be wandering about by themselves, but I'd bed them down on a tiny spot of goo at each corner, just to make sure. A pea-sized pip of Gripfill, or even silicone would do - just enough to hold it in place if it gets knocked, but easy enough to lift when you need to gain access.

Your slate would probably work out cheaper in two pieces too!

A

 

[DJH]

A trick carpenters used to fix wood mantel shelves on stone fireplaces was to screw in a few countersunk screws not fully home, in the underside of the shelf and then press the shelf down on the bed of mortar, not that that will solve your problem, but I'm getting the hang of going off topic quite well now and I've hardly been on here a week or so!!

I like the idea of the stone shelf. Will you polish it? A spot of 'goo' under each corner will hold it in place, as the others have said, as it's own weight will keep it there I reckon

 

[worms]

and random-width T&G boarded panelling covering the walls (thanks to my nearish neighbour Andrew Bodenham on the Forum for the advice there!)

That seems pretty good advice and it looks very effective! Was there any more detail to the advice or was it as simple as it sounds? (I've searched the old posts but I don't think this was on-forum advice).

 

[piper]

Thank you Andrew. The trouble is, I'm rather set on the idea of having it in one piece, with a sweeping curve joining the two widths and reflecting the curve of the basin. I did a drawing and emailed Honister over two years ago to ask if it was possible, and to get a quote, then decided not to spend the money for a time. I've just reactivated the plan - trying to finish odd bits of woodwork in the room before that magical cut-off date of "Christmas" (this year!). The quote has gone up of course, but I'm loath to change the plan. Having said that, your idea of two pieces is very sensible.

That seems pretty good advice and it looks very effective! Was there any more detail to the advice or was it as simple as it sounds? (I've searched the old posts but I don't think this was on-forum advice).

Andrew lives very close to me, so the advice was given in person. I had the idea of T&G I think, he suggested the random widths with the moulding, and recommended a place in Kendal to get it. I wanted something better than standard builders' plasterboard over the new stud partition one side. The other side (seen in the picture) is on a frame of battens over a very uneven (internal) brick with lime plaster wall. The wood is touching the wall in one corner, and about five inches from it at the opposite corner - which makes a much easier surface to fix the mirror to, and run wiring behind etc.

DJN - Honister slate mine supply it very beautifully polished.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Piper,

Having the slate in one piece would be ok, it would just need careful handling. If, as you say, the transition between widths is a smooth curve (or has radiused corners) rather than a sharp step then this will significantly reduce the chance of a crack starting at that point.

In one piece I'd be less inclined to fix it in place - self-weight should keep it there. Ensure that the points on which it sits are all in plane to avoid stressing it, and provide support at the middle as well as at the ends.

 

[Lime]

Ok, if slate is the way you are going, make sure the whole surface on which it will sit is flat and level and do fix it in some way.

The assumption that the weight can hold it in place is a dangerous one.
IME children (and some adults) get up to all sorts of things in bathrooms.
The slate would not be too heavy to move and people do explore... just because the cistern does not hold any interest to you does not mean it doesn't for others.
Lifting off the slate to look would be extremely dangerous.
If the slate were to fall off for whatever reason it would damage the fittings and anyone in the way.

The slate could be moved for other reasons inadvertently.
e.g. my perplexity on why the dado rail in a bathroom corner was coming away from the wall was solved when told (eventually) that a game of hide and seek with visiting young relatives had involved a large 14 year old girl (sugar wouldn't melt in her mouth type) climbing up the wall and balancing with their feet on the dado.
It also accounted for the finger marks on the ceiling.

 

[tobydog]

Just a thought but is it worth cutting a piece of 1/2 inch ply that exactly matches the void, and then using mastic to stick it to the underside of the slate. Maybe fiddly getting it spot on but will certainly stop it slipping off and, if it's a good enough fit, won't be easily prized off by little fingers.

 

[piper]

Thanks for all the replies - some very useful ideas there. I quite liked the suggestion of using a piece of ply under the slate, Tobydog. I had assumed you meant it would extend beyond the ends and be screwed down, though it would raise the level and show between the slate and the tiles. However, I've just realised you meant it to fit down into the recess, and stop any lateral movement of the slate, while allowing it to lift out - very ingenious! A long strip of wood, plus a couple of cross pieces, glued to the underside of the slate, could be made to work the same way, and could also guard against the narrow bit breaking. Anyway, I'll certainly make sure the slate is level, probably resting on some sort of plastic 'gasket' or foam insulating strip. We don't have any children visiting at present, but there may be sometime, so it's as well to be reminded of the dangers. I was also thinking the slate could be held firmly in place, and still be removable, with slightly tapered pieces of wood or moulding screwed at each end. Anyway, thanks again for the comments.