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Odd House ? Have your say.
- Thread starter Maf
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Nemesis
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No it works and it's all very interesting but we all haven't had time to digest it all.
Bank barn?
Bank barn?
Nemesis
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Not had time to read it all properly I have to say - but if it's a barn built into a hillside then it's a type of bank barn in all probability.
More usual in Cumbria but found in many other places too.
random thoughts:
My house (once lived in by Robinsons too) has a posh face and a less posh face - the public side and the private are of different quality stone.
Was this ever part of a manor?
If so the bridge may have been built by the Lord of the Manor as part of manorial responsibilities. Manorial responsibilities were many.
From the Devil's Bridge story:
Sir William Craven, Lord Mayor of London in the reign of the 1st James -- took the matter in hand and built upon the old foundations a more terrestrial, but not less substantial and enduring, structure.
Not sure it would have required steam cranes - plenty of scaffolding and labourers. As with railways. No reason to think it was the first crossing, maybe replaced something simpler.
Responsibility for the road may have come later with the local authority and the markers as you say could have been used to denote where one responsibility started and another ended - as with a parish lengthsman.
Have you checked manorial records re the building? Tithe maps? Inclosure maps? Parish records?
Certainly the field patterns suggest enclosure.
Have you checked the deeds?
Could also be ecclesiastical parish boundary markers, hence the cross?
The little windows - we have a blocked up window which would once have looked out onto an approach bridge.
I think it could have been a useful feature to see who was approaching and friend or foe!
I presume you have talked to:
http://www.yvbsg.org.uk/
Also came across this, which is a little disconcerting:
http://www.stockton.gov.uk/pressoffice/localnews/year2005/may/dibbles_bridge1
The Dibbles Bridge crash was important not only because of the great loss and suffering it caused but also because it lead to changes in braking standards, which have helped save numerous lives in subsequent years.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/viewarticle.aspx?sectionid=105&articleid=1039197
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/429628
More usual in Cumbria but found in many other places too.
random thoughts:
My house (once lived in by Robinsons too) has a posh face and a less posh face - the public side and the private are of different quality stone.
Was this ever part of a manor?
If so the bridge may have been built by the Lord of the Manor as part of manorial responsibilities. Manorial responsibilities were many.
From the Devil's Bridge story:
Sir William Craven, Lord Mayor of London in the reign of the 1st James -- took the matter in hand and built upon the old foundations a more terrestrial, but not less substantial and enduring, structure.
Not sure it would have required steam cranes - plenty of scaffolding and labourers. As with railways. No reason to think it was the first crossing, maybe replaced something simpler.
Responsibility for the road may have come later with the local authority and the markers as you say could have been used to denote where one responsibility started and another ended - as with a parish lengthsman.
Have you checked manorial records re the building? Tithe maps? Inclosure maps? Parish records?
Certainly the field patterns suggest enclosure.
Have you checked the deeds?
Could also be ecclesiastical parish boundary markers, hence the cross?
The little windows - we have a blocked up window which would once have looked out onto an approach bridge.
I think it could have been a useful feature to see who was approaching and friend or foe!
I presume you have talked to:
http://www.yvbsg.org.uk/
Also came across this, which is a little disconcerting:
http://www.stockton.gov.uk/pressoffice/localnews/year2005/may/dibbles_bridge1
The Dibbles Bridge crash was important not only because of the great loss and suffering it caused but also because it lead to changes in braking standards, which have helped save numerous lives in subsequent years.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/viewarticle.aspx?sectionid=105&articleid=1039197
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/429628
I've emailed the YVBSG and await a reply.
The house seems to be lumped into the neighbouring farm estate for some time (with tenants.)
The enclosure awards (I'm told) are indecipherable for this area tho I haven't seen them myself as theyre kept miles away !
I'm aware of the Crash (the worst of many) On sunny weekends there is generally at least one concussed biker wandering round my front garden looking for a witness to his stupidity!
There are still people round here that call it Devil's Bridge... It collects Souls (apparently)
Do you think the back of the house looks industrial ? A surveyor told me that stonework of the likes in the cellar would have been too pricey for the likes of a farmer. He added that he'd seen similar stuff stolen from the nearby abbeys.
In the garden there was an outside toilet. Most of the stone was reused from somewhere with plently of curved cut window mullions !?
The house seems to be lumped into the neighbouring farm estate for some time (with tenants.)
The enclosure awards (I'm told) are indecipherable for this area tho I haven't seen them myself as theyre kept miles away !
I'm aware of the Crash (the worst of many) On sunny weekends there is generally at least one concussed biker wandering round my front garden looking for a witness to his stupidity!
There are still people round here that call it Devil's Bridge... It collects Souls (apparently)
Do you think the back of the house looks industrial ? A surveyor told me that stonework of the likes in the cellar would have been too pricey for the likes of a farmer. He added that he'd seen similar stuff stolen from the nearby abbeys.
In the garden there was an outside toilet. Most of the stone was reused from somewhere with plently of curved cut window mullions !?
Nemesis
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Dibble - Divvil - north country corruption of the word possibly?
Well, around where I live many buildings are constructed from regularly cut blocks of stone which come from a long abandoned wall. It's now a World Heritage Site but for a considerable number of years after its builders departed it was merely considered a handy source of stone. Some delving may bring you to find an earlier building in the vicinity from which stone was removed, possibly when a building was being updated. Parceval Hall - is that nearby?
Not sure about industrial - was there any industry to speak of apart from sheep? Little in the wrong place to be anything using water as power.
Maybe simply built to withstand the weather, nothing fancy and without many openings?
Have you been to the County Records Office and sought advice about what records could remain? That's presumably where the Inclosure Map and Award is, and it would be my first port of call for information.
They may also offer a simple research service by post for a fee.
Farmers - it's possible that the person who built was not a farmer but a land owner and the farmer a tenant. However, I think that not all farmers were poor.
Well, around where I live many buildings are constructed from regularly cut blocks of stone which come from a long abandoned wall. It's now a World Heritage Site but for a considerable number of years after its builders departed it was merely considered a handy source of stone. Some delving may bring you to find an earlier building in the vicinity from which stone was removed, possibly when a building was being updated. Parceval Hall - is that nearby?
Not sure about industrial - was there any industry to speak of apart from sheep? Little in the wrong place to be anything using water as power.
Maybe simply built to withstand the weather, nothing fancy and without many openings?
Have you been to the County Records Office and sought advice about what records could remain? That's presumably where the Inclosure Map and Award is, and it would be my first port of call for information.
They may also offer a simple research service by post for a fee.
Farmers - it's possible that the person who built was not a farmer but a land owner and the farmer a tenant. However, I think that not all farmers were poor.
KN
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Mat
Not being that far from you (Hellifield) I was wondering if there is any information in Whitakers Craven from 1805.
Also the owners of our house the Hamertons, it is said could travel on their own land all the way to York upto some point in time! (sorry can't remember dates that I get told) I'll ask Francis (hubby) as he has many books and might just have something relevent.
Karen
Not being that far from you (Hellifield) I was wondering if there is any information in Whitakers Craven from 1805.
Also the owners of our house the Hamertons, it is said could travel on their own land all the way to York upto some point in time! (sorry can't remember dates that I get told) I'll ask Francis (hubby) as he has many books and might just have something relevent.
Karen
Nemesis
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It may also be that the bridge was called Devil's Bridge as a sort of homage to the other one:
IoE number: 75125
Location: DEVIL'S BRIDGE, BRIDGE BROW
KIRKBY LONSDALE, SOUTH LAKELAND, CUMBRIA
Photographer: Mr CJ Wright LRPS
Date Photographed: 23 September 2002
Date listed: 22 March 1983
Date of last amendment: 22 March 1983
Grade I
BRIDGE BROW
5166
Devil's Bridge
SD 67 NW 4/15
I
BRIDGE BROW 1. 5166 Devil's Bridge SD 67 NW 4/15 I 2. C15 or early C16. Ashlar and dressed stone. Bridge of three unequal segmental arches, each with four ribs and three chamfers. Two piers with cutwaters which are chamfered back to semi-octagonal refuges at level of roadway. One string. Solid parapet. At Casterton end the remains of sundial, with raised lettering " .. n Constabl C ... Lonsdale War .." "Feare God honer the .. 1673". Once carried the road from Kendal to Skipton, but replaced in 1930s by new bridge 150 m to south. One of finest medieval bridges in England. (RCHM). Scheduled Ancient Monument.
Seems that it was copied elsewhere:
IoE number: 75266
Location: UNDERLEY BRIDGE, UNDERLEY PARK
KIRKBY LONSDALE, SOUTH LAKELAND, CUMBRIA
Photographer: N/A
Date Photographed: N/A
Date listed: 22 March 1983
Date of last amendment: 22 March 1983
Grade II
UNDERLEY PARK
5166
Underley Bridge
SD 68 SW 2/141
II GV
UNDERLEY PARK 1. 5166 Underley Bridge SD 68 SW 2/141 II GV 2. 1872. Elaborate Gothic bridge of three arches repeating the rhythm of Devil's Bridge. Rock-faced rusticated stone. Three unequal segmental arches. Two piers with cut- waters chamfered back to provide semi-octagonal embrasures. Similar turrets rise on banks at either end above parapet, with steps to crenellations. Fully machicolated and loopholed. "1872" on inner side of one parapet, "1875" on the other. Built by the Earl of Bective at a cost of £10,000.
It's possible that the barn came first, a field barn, and presumably there is no evidence of it ever being anything other than a barn. It's possible that the house where the farmer originally lived was some distance away, possibly in a village. Where grazing was on common land pre-enclosure this was quite usual. Following enclosure many people took the opportunity to build on their newly gained land. It's all quite a complex subject with many variables though.
Here's Ron Brunskill on bank barns, yours may be an adaptation of the idea:
The Bank Barn Story - R W Brunskill
The Bank Barn is a type of farm building which is found in abundance in Cumbria but in few other parts of Great Britain. The Bank Barn consists of a conventional threshing barn at an upper level and accommodation for horses and cattle below. The Barn is usually set into a slope, the upper level being reached by way of a ramp from the fields and the lower level opening onto a farmyard. Examples are to be found throughout Cumbria except for the Solway Plain and distribution extends into adjacent parts of western Yorkshire and northern Lancashire. A few examples have been found in the Lochaber district of Scotland; one or two have been found in Wales; otherwise the only other substantial number is in Cornwall and Devon.
Comparable buildings include the Pennsylvania Forebay Barn which spread from its Pennsylvania heartland to much of the United States and Canada, barns in the south-eastern part of Switzerland, somewhat similar buildings in mountainous lands around the Baltic and, in large numbers, in Norway. Except for migration of the building type from Switzerland to Pennsylvania and a possible link between Cumbria and that state development in other regions seems to have been independent.
It was far easier to adapt a house to the land than vice versa - and building into a hillside quite usual. The extra space would have been useful storage at a time when there was no local supermarket to pop to in the middle of winter.
It could be that the barn with arch was once an open shed and later the other front put on - why we can only guess, possibly updating and the desire for a squared off opening with normal shaped doors!
It may even have had some storage purpose - fleeces? A tithe connection?
The rear of the house is interesting though - very simple, and the front of the house may once have had smaller windows too, and been 'updated' at some point.
Lots to delve into - and you are in an area with plenty of history, much of it, as Karen says, documented.
It will all be a little at time, like a jigsaw. and totally fascinating.
IoE number: 75125
Location: DEVIL'S BRIDGE, BRIDGE BROW
KIRKBY LONSDALE, SOUTH LAKELAND, CUMBRIA
Photographer: Mr CJ Wright LRPS
Date Photographed: 23 September 2002
Date listed: 22 March 1983
Date of last amendment: 22 March 1983
Grade I
BRIDGE BROW
5166
Devil's Bridge
SD 67 NW 4/15
I
BRIDGE BROW 1. 5166 Devil's Bridge SD 67 NW 4/15 I 2. C15 or early C16. Ashlar and dressed stone. Bridge of three unequal segmental arches, each with four ribs and three chamfers. Two piers with cutwaters which are chamfered back to semi-octagonal refuges at level of roadway. One string. Solid parapet. At Casterton end the remains of sundial, with raised lettering " .. n Constabl C ... Lonsdale War .." "Feare God honer the .. 1673". Once carried the road from Kendal to Skipton, but replaced in 1930s by new bridge 150 m to south. One of finest medieval bridges in England. (RCHM). Scheduled Ancient Monument.
Seems that it was copied elsewhere:
IoE number: 75266
Location: UNDERLEY BRIDGE, UNDERLEY PARK
KIRKBY LONSDALE, SOUTH LAKELAND, CUMBRIA
Photographer: N/A
Date Photographed: N/A
Date listed: 22 March 1983
Date of last amendment: 22 March 1983
Grade II
UNDERLEY PARK
5166
Underley Bridge
SD 68 SW 2/141
II GV
UNDERLEY PARK 1. 5166 Underley Bridge SD 68 SW 2/141 II GV 2. 1872. Elaborate Gothic bridge of three arches repeating the rhythm of Devil's Bridge. Rock-faced rusticated stone. Three unequal segmental arches. Two piers with cut- waters chamfered back to provide semi-octagonal embrasures. Similar turrets rise on banks at either end above parapet, with steps to crenellations. Fully machicolated and loopholed. "1872" on inner side of one parapet, "1875" on the other. Built by the Earl of Bective at a cost of £10,000.
It's possible that the barn came first, a field barn, and presumably there is no evidence of it ever being anything other than a barn. It's possible that the house where the farmer originally lived was some distance away, possibly in a village. Where grazing was on common land pre-enclosure this was quite usual. Following enclosure many people took the opportunity to build on their newly gained land. It's all quite a complex subject with many variables though.
Here's Ron Brunskill on bank barns, yours may be an adaptation of the idea:
The Bank Barn Story - R W Brunskill
The Bank Barn is a type of farm building which is found in abundance in Cumbria but in few other parts of Great Britain. The Bank Barn consists of a conventional threshing barn at an upper level and accommodation for horses and cattle below. The Barn is usually set into a slope, the upper level being reached by way of a ramp from the fields and the lower level opening onto a farmyard. Examples are to be found throughout Cumbria except for the Solway Plain and distribution extends into adjacent parts of western Yorkshire and northern Lancashire. A few examples have been found in the Lochaber district of Scotland; one or two have been found in Wales; otherwise the only other substantial number is in Cornwall and Devon.
Comparable buildings include the Pennsylvania Forebay Barn which spread from its Pennsylvania heartland to much of the United States and Canada, barns in the south-eastern part of Switzerland, somewhat similar buildings in mountainous lands around the Baltic and, in large numbers, in Norway. Except for migration of the building type from Switzerland to Pennsylvania and a possible link between Cumbria and that state development in other regions seems to have been independent.
It was far easier to adapt a house to the land than vice versa - and building into a hillside quite usual. The extra space would have been useful storage at a time when there was no local supermarket to pop to in the middle of winter.
It could be that the barn with arch was once an open shed and later the other front put on - why we can only guess, possibly updating and the desire for a squared off opening with normal shaped doors!
It may even have had some storage purpose - fleeces? A tithe connection?
The rear of the house is interesting though - very simple, and the front of the house may once have had smaller windows too, and been 'updated' at some point.
Lots to delve into - and you are in an area with plenty of history, much of it, as Karen says, documented.
It will all be a little at time, like a jigsaw. and totally fascinating.
Nemesis
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Regarding the date plaque (1832 surely, not 33?) remember they don't always denote a build date - they can commemorate anything including a new owner or a revamp of the property.
Bedroom fireplace - a stone hobgrate - we have those in the bedrooms!
Re the road and bridge - this day may be of interest (or contact the Road and Road Transport History Association)
http://www.local-history.co.uk/news/070809roadday.html
http://www.rrtha.org.uk/Research%20Workshop.htm
http://www.rrtha.org.uk/
It's a little tangential but there may be information out there!
Roads and liabilities for:
http://library-2.lse.ac.uk/collections/pamphlets/document_service/HE3/00000074/doc.pdf
Bedroom fireplace - a stone hobgrate - we have those in the bedrooms!
Re the road and bridge - this day may be of interest (or contact the Road and Road Transport History Association)
http://www.local-history.co.uk/news/070809roadday.html
http://www.rrtha.org.uk/Research%20Workshop.htm
http://www.rrtha.org.uk/
It's a little tangential but there may be information out there!
Roads and liabilities for:
http://library-2.lse.ac.uk/collections/pamphlets/document_service/HE3/00000074/doc.pdf
Nemesis
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Also - the little wall thingies - 02 and 03 - it's hard to say really without seeing them in situ - but it's possible they were to hold candles or a lamp.
Consider too that many places used to be multi purpose - my home was once both a farmhouse and a shop, which is why the barn/stable and loft over was built. There was both a cart shed and a gig house - deliveries would have to be made, goods stored.
Yours could even at one time have been a simple alehouse too possibly, given the road is near.
Consider too that many places used to be multi purpose - my home was once both a farmhouse and a shop, which is why the barn/stable and loft over was built. There was both a cart shed and a gig house - deliveries would have to be made, goods stored.
Yours could even at one time have been a simple alehouse too possibly, given the road is near.
chuckey
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Fantastic house!, the Museum at Hawes (Dales and country life?) are having a talk about dales cottages on the 7th Dec - could be interesting for you? A lot of the detailing in these sort of houses are purely to the builders taste and foibles. Speaking to the historians there is no rhyme or reason or even dating evidence to make sense of them (Wensleydale). your house was a quality build with possibly recovered stone from a monastry or suchlike.
I was brooding on the "industrial" process and could only think of a succesful cheese maker but brewing would seem to be a better bet as cheese making involves lots of stone shelves to store the cheeses on. Brewing needs big spaces for big barrels.
Frank
I was brooding on the "industrial" process and could only think of a succesful cheese maker but brewing would seem to be a better bet as cheese making involves lots of stone shelves to store the cheeses on. Brewing needs big spaces for big barrels.
Frank
stickybeak
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Latest News !
I think I know what the strange openings (01 and 02) were for !
On closer inspection the upper windows to the rear are different to the others in the house.
Could it be that these were added later post-window tax era and the openings were to share light from the central window ? The angles on the openings seem to suggest so.
I wiki'ed window tax but found the results confusing. I had hoped they could help with dates but the problem is compounded by the number of window the house has.
I have 4 to the front, 2 bridge-view windows to the side, 2 'original' windows to the rear plus one cellar window (but I don't know if that counts. It's a cellar but above ground!)
Any ideas folks ?
I think I know what the strange openings (01 and 02) were for !
On closer inspection the upper windows to the rear are different to the others in the house.
Could it be that these were added later post-window tax era and the openings were to share light from the central window ? The angles on the openings seem to suggest so.
I wiki'ed window tax but found the results confusing. I had hoped they could help with dates but the problem is compounded by the number of window the house has.
I have 4 to the front, 2 bridge-view windows to the side, 2 'original' windows to the rear plus one cellar window (but I don't know if that counts. It's a cellar but above ground!)
Any ideas folks ?