Oak screws / nails / fittings etc

[MdB]

I have just got myself 300m of new oak floorboarding which I'll be using to replace the floor upstairs (the old floor is 1970s planks which are different thicknesses and have cupped all over the place). The T&G profile of the oak is setup for secret nailing but I thought screwing would be a better idea than nailing. It removes the issue of nails pulling out and makes it somewhat easier to take the boards up if there is ever any need in the future. The question then raises as to what sort of screw? You can get special screws from Screwfix:
type 1 type 2
but these are not cheap so I tried some cheap 3 x 40mm standard woodscrews on an offcut and though small, seemed to work really well. They went in flush without needing a pilot hole nor countersinking so look ideal to me with my limited knowledge. The finish is a zinc passivate which should hopefully stop the steel turning the oak black not that I would have thought it would be seen if they did due to T&G lip. The joists are approx 350mm spacing so would one 3x40mm screw (No 4, 1 1/2" I think) per joist be enough?

I also intend to use some of the boards to make a simple ledge and brace internal door but I'm completely lost as to what to use to hold it together. I guess rose head nails would the most appropriate but can you get these in a form which won't stain the oak? Where is a good place to get them or any alternative from?

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm a recent convert to Spax screws. No pilot holes required. Used them for my roof as hammering in nails would have done too much damage to the reed/lime underneath the tiles. Not particularly cheap but I would guess that 300m of oak floorboarding was not cheap either! You can get some Spax sizes in stainless steel if you're really worried about staining the oak. Even less cheap though. I found the cheapest Spax prices at Components Direct.

 

[MdB]

The oak was £3.45/m inc vat + delivery (£25 per sq m) which I didn't think was too bad (actually I thought it was a great price).

I don't want to skimp on the screws but also don't want to spend £20 when £5 would do. Thanks for the link. It is always useful to know good places to get stuff from.

I am worried about the staining though, would there be an issue with the ordinary passivated ones especially as they would be hidden? Do I need to go the expense of SS?

 

[skier-hughes]

My external passivated ones have now got staining round, but I think it looks nice. But then it is a bridge and not flooring. I'm drilling and nailing my floor.

 

[MdB]

If the screws could be seen then I'm sure it could look nice but with hidden screws the stain would be leak up through the gaps in the floorboards at regular intervals and could look rather weird. The staining requires steel + moisture I believe so I don't think I have too much to worry about.

 

[middi]

If you are worried about staining use narrow head, square drive stainless steel (as your no.2 picture)
You can also use S/S screws for making doors ( well advised if external) as long as you countersink and oak pellet the cavities, sand flat and nobody ( or nearly) will know what holds the door together

 

[biffvernon]

Brass, slotted, countersunk, and do drill a pilot hole. All else is witchcraft.

 

[Lime]

All floorboarding that I have taken up, and I've taken up a lot in different houses, have had rusty nails... big thick rusty nails.
In a couple of decades time those really good thin screws that go in with little or no effort (I know I use them too for other things) will all be rusted through particularly if it's oak.
Just because it is easy and your homes are heated now, think of the times it won't be and the floor left forgotten.. which it will be eventually.
These times will be looked back on in decades time as the bodge-it fixing time much the same as the 60s are remembered for polystyrene ceiling tiles and the 70s for brown bathroom suites.

 

[MdB]

Good point lime. I do like the idea of the flooring (and the house) hanging around for some time. Brass would be nice but the idea of putting in 600 slotted screws does not appeal. Pozi is so much easier to put in with an electric screwdriver. Maybe stainless is the way to go for the floor.

I do like the idea of brass screws for the door though. That could look good and there would be less chance of me being burnt at the stake by Biff.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

It's all personal preference, of course, but after splashing out on new oak flooring I would not want to disfugure it by having cross-head screws visible on the faces of the boards. To my eye that's in the same league as d.g. plastic windows in an old facade.

If you want to screw down, perhaps for later access to services, then Biff's suggestion of using coutersunk brass slot screws is the way to go. Get these just below surface and in a few years they will be patinated by traffic and look like they've always been there. But I don't think that even slot screws would look right over the whole floor. Nails are the thing, and if you want to nail through the face of the boards I'd use galvanised lost-head oval nails, say 50mm, punched just below surface. I'd drill a pilot hole in the oak too, to avoid any risk of splitting.

Alternatively, if you want a smoother look then secret nailing through the tongues is the way. You can hire very good nailing machines for this which make the job much faster, though in the past I've had good results using a 15 gauge pneumatic nail gun. I'd use ring shanked nails of you can find them, as they are less likely to pull over time. The screws you show on the right are designed to be put in at 45 deg through the tongue - in effect secret screwing. Although I haven't tried them I can see some attraction - the security and removability of screws. On the down side, slower installation and greater cost.

I'd not work too much about staining; in my experience this is only really a problem if the oak is wet, e.g. external use. Those rusty old nails we have all encountered were untreated iron / steel, and probably hammered into fairly fresh wood with high moiusture content, hence the corrosion.
For your plank doors it all depends how 'authentic' you want to be. Square shank iron nails clenched over would be considered very good by some, though a lot of commercially available plank doors are screwed together for speed of assembly, and the screw head plugged over. Some people would view the plugged screws as a sign of 'quality', whilst others would see them as a 'dishonest use of modern fasteners'. Really , it's a minefield out there. For what it's worth the door below was made with clenched iron nails, and a couple of years on there has been no problem with staining.

See more pics on my website.

 

[MdB]

It's all personal preference, of course, but after splashing out on new oak flooring I would not want to disfugure it by having cross-head screws visible on the faces of the boards. To my eye that's in the same league as d.g. plastic windows in an old facade.

Totally agree. It was going to be hidden nailing or hidden screwing.

I'd not work too much about staining; in my experience this is only really a problem if the oak is wet,

Thanks for that. Very useful to know.

For your plank doors it all depends how 'authentic' you want to be. Square shank iron nails clenched over would be considered very good by some,

Where do you get your nails from? Did you pre drill before nailing?

Your door (very nice by the way) is very much what I was thinking of. May copy some of the features if I may....

 

[Penners]

I'm in total agreement about the visual benefits of secret nailing. However, do be absolutely sure that you aren't ever going to need to lift the floor for any reason whatsoever, because a secret-nailed floor has unmarried parents, when it comes to lifting it.

And, as has been advised above, do drill. Oak can be very brittle, and secret nailing takes you very close to the edge of the board.

 

[Toby Newell]

Hi

1. Pilot drill, face screw and pellet whole floor. (Preferable to face nail/screw if oak is over 7 inces 175mm anyway in addition to secret nailing) OR

2. Secret nail with Portanail, Primatech nailer etc. Identify where access may be required, cut off tongues in these areas then screw and pellet (wood plug)

If you do not cut off tongues before you lay you will have to use a Fein multimaster, Roberts Jamb saw or Festool plunge saw or similar to cut the tongues before lifting once laid and it is difficult to do this without leaving visible marks, cutting the tongues before hand in crucial areas is much easier. If you leave it to the average tradesman you will be lucky if you get an angle grinder with a worn cut off disc.

Nail are v strong and will not come out. Much of America is held together with these cleat nails, Americans make great hammers and nails! Dates back to the quakers and Dutch settlers, very good at basic wood tools, they are very well engineered (my power tools are all German and Japanese, my brushes are all English but my hammers and nailers... are all American!)

You get what you pay for, Spax and Reiser screws cost 5 times as much because they are 5 times as efficient. Even though they are self countersinking I would still pilot drill especially near edges and at ends of boards. Personally I use Spax Torx head screws in oak as the extra torque transmission avoids camming out/bit/screw chewing up and helps to drive much deeper. Cheap screws will make you swear, expensive ones will make you smile, £15 is not a lot of money to turn a weekend of swearing into one of smiling. Number 4 x 50mm should be big enough although longer may be required for awkward joist fixing.

Sealing your timber and waxing your iron nails will help avoid iron stains and galvanised (coated) rosehead nails are quite common in builders yards (what I use) you shouldn't have a real problem with staining unless the wood is damp or gets wet. Anyway, an oak braced door with rosehead nails WITHOUT any iron stains doesn't look right surely! Just get them on there, the stains look great!

Toby

 

[MdB]

Thanks for that. Useful info.

 

[Penners]

Much of America is held together with these cleat nails

Hmmm - judging by the way it's been falling apart recently, I'm not sure that's much of a recommendation! :wink:

 

[Toby Newell]

Ah the nails are fine, I think it's the imaginary fixings holding the American financial system together that are failing. Who would have thought, one of the world's biggest hedge fund managers was just a pyramid selling fraudster? I suppose if you have a private jet and several million quid no one bothers to ask...

 

[biffvernon]

The whole of the world's financial system is a pyramid, relying on continued economic growth. The Made-0ff scam was just one of the sharper bits. Pensions that require lots of young folk to pay for a few old folk is another, but the pattern is endemic to the whole house of cards.