Notre Dame

[Flyfisher]

Terrible news from Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794.

Early report are guessing the fire could be linked to restoration works. How many times have we heard that before - Windsor Castle, Cutty Sark . . . ?

 

[MikeG]

If they can save the walls, the consequential re-build is going to draw in hundreds of skilled guys from all over the world, probably cost billions, and may finish about the same time as La Segrada Familia. Luckily, every square millimetre of the building has been recorded. Out of the most awful tragedy there is at least the tiny consolation that the rebuild may be the most interesting building project on the planet for the rest of our lives.

 

[TheSpid]

Awful news - such a beautiful building

 

[Gothichome]

 

[DJH]

Uppark as well FF. It was flame from a leadworkers oxy acetylene torch that caused that conflagration...the spire at Notre Dame was clad in lead I believe.

 

[MikeG]

I'm pretty sure leadworkers don't use oxy acetylene. That's a welding/ cutting gas, used with mild steel etc. Leadworkers use tiny blowtorches, usually powered by propane, smaller than a plumber uses...........more the size a chef uses to caramalise a creme brulee.

 

[TheForge]

I reckon DJH knows a thing or two about lead working! Oxy acetylene can weld lead too. Often used in roofing applications.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I reckon DJH knows a thing or two about lead working!

Just a bit!

 

[MikeG]

Oh OK, well I stand corrected. And surprised. I've never seen anything other than propane used.

 

[88v8]

When we had an extension built in 1991 there was a good leadworker involved, he did some welding on the roof but I didn't see him in action.

Before there were gas torches, paraffin torches, what would have been used, or indeed would heat have been involved at all?

Ivor

 

[Gothichome]

It seems the funding for the rebuilding is not going to be an issue, and nor is the sourcing of oak if the story of it all being donated by a French lumber company is correct. It will be interesting though to see how much of MikeG’s thoughts on visible repairs they use. They will build with new, but will they hand finish and artificially age the beams were visible to maintain the look for the tourists or leave them natural and let them age over time. But as Mike mentioned there will be a whole set of new ‘old skillsk passed on to a new generation of carpenters.

 

[MikeG]

The roof timbers won't be on show. They're hidden by a stone vault, so they'll just be done 'au naturale' in new green oak, as will the spire, thus the question of artificial aging doesn't arise. I imagine that any repairs to the any of the tracery, carvings etc in the main body of the building will be done in new oak but finished to blend in with the existing.

 

[Flyfisher]

It seems the funding for the rebuilding is not going to be an issue, and nor is the sourcing of oak if the story of it all being donated by a French lumber company is correct. It will be interesting though to see how much of MikeG’s thoughts on visible repairs they use. They will build with new, but will they hand finish and artificially age the beams were visible to maintain the look for the tourists or leave them natural and let them age over time. But as Mike mentioned there will be a whole set of new ‘old skillsk passed on to a new generation of carpenters.

Yes, it seems that money and other resources are suddenly no object. It does make me wonder about our priorities. An interesting article here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47952725 including this quote "It is sad, a tragedy . . . but around the world, there are so many worse things going on. It sounds so blunt to say it. But nobody died."

As for the repairs, I'm sure they'll build with new materials if only because sourcing suitable reclaimed ones in such quantity would surely be difficult if not impossible - and we don't want to encourage stripping other cathedrals do we? :wink:
Anyway, there have been so many repairs over the centuries that plenty of truly original fabric has long disappeared, some of it due to the significant and deliberate destruction during the French revolution, plus the magnificent spire that was destroyed in the fire was an almost brand new addition, being only around 150 years old (thank you Wikipedia :wink: ). So the current talk about replacing the spire with a completely new design would seem to be in keeping with its history of continuous change and additions: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47959313.

 

[MikeG]

It seems it wasn't the lead workers' fault, no matter the source of their flame.

 

[CliffordPope]

, or indeed would heat have been involved at all?

I doubt it. They use raised wooden battens and fold the lead so that the upturns on one sheet are covered by down-folds on the next.
I was impressed by local builders I watched repairing flashing and ridges at our house by their use of folds, and also nicking out small tags to fold round to secure sheets to each other to prevent the wind lifting exposed edges.

Also I think lead has the property of fusing together if cleaned and beaten.
Lead roofs require maintenance over the long term - I've heard that it flows slowly under gravity, and should be turned every few hundred years.

 

[CliffordPope]

, or indeed would heat have been involved at all?

I doubt it. They use raised wooden battens and fold the lead so that the upturns on one sheet are covered by down-folds on the next.
I was impressed by local builders I watched repairing flashing and ridges at our house by their use of folds, and also nicking out small tags to fold round to secure sheets to each other to prevent the wind lifting exposed edges.

Also I think lead has the property of fusing together if cleaned and beaten.
Lead roofs require maintenance over the long term - I've heard that it flows slowly under gravity, and should be turned every few hundred years.

"Plumbers" had two specialities - indoor and outdoor - pipes or roofs.

 

[Flyfisher]

A thought-provoking sentiment . . .

“I know a lot of you are really upset about the Notre Dame fire in Paris and I’m really sad, too. To see something so beautiful and so carefully constructed be damaged by forces out of your control is very painful. As a scientist who studies species that are going extinct right now, this is the feeling I grapple with more often than I’d like. The irreplaceable work of art that I worship is nature and to watch it senselessly crumble to the ground every day hurts my heart. I highly respect your feelings about what happened today and I hope the parallel described can help you better understand how many of the people who have devoted their lives to conservation feel quite often. We know you get tired of us shouting about species going extinct and we’re sorry for the broken record but we’re surrounded by burning cathedrals built across millennia and no one seems to care.”
~Jonathan Kolby (National Geographic)

 

[Gothichome]

Flyfisher, the fellow is absolutely correct, there are other tragedies in the natural world that probably have more significance to the world than a building, but unlike large heritage structures, very few people have seen a rare endangered Amazon frog, and will never see a rare Amazon frog, so it doesn’t click in our physique that it may very well be an important Amazon frog. Were as a building as large as and unique as Notre Dame (and a lot of other heritage buildings) is most defiantly visible and recognized by most people in the world.

 

[Flyfisher]

Fair point about an almost unknown Amazonian frog, but I was thinking more about well publicised examples of global suffering - millions of people dying for want of drugs we take for granted in ‘the west’, for example, and many other tragedies and suffering reported in the daily news. We seem to need massive PR events such as Live Aid or Comic Relief to prompt us into shelling out a few pounds for the charities involved but as soon a a big church suffers a bit of fire damage the billions needed for repairs magically materialises within days and it becomes a national, if not international, priority.

Funnily enough, I’ve always been astounded by the resources that historic communities poured into building such magnificent buildings all those centuries ago when most people only managed a pretty much subsistence living and could have benefitted hugely from a different application of all that time, effort and resource. Yet here we are 1000 years on and little seems to have changed in that respect. Human nature I guess.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

, or indeed would heat have been involved at all?

I doubt it. They use raised wooden battens and fold the lead so that the upturns on one sheet are covered by down-folds on the next.
I was impressed by local builders I watched repairing flashing and ridges at our house by their use of folds, and also nicking out small tags to fold round to secure sheets to each other to prevent the wind lifting exposed edges.

Also I think lead has the property of fusing together if cleaned and beaten.
Lead roofs require maintenance over the long term - I've heard that it flows slowly under gravity, and should be turned every few hundred years.

But when you reach complicated junctions the sheet has to be cut, bent and welted, which is where heat comes in. Hot work is unavoidable. At Felbrigg we had a scaffold tower built up to eaves height but 10 metres from the main scaffolding round the roof, and hot work had to be dine, as far as possible, on that. There's always something that has to be done in situ though.

At Notre Dame it looks as if they were only in the very early stages of repair though, removing statues from the base of the fleche only last week. Dismantling would have involved power tools, cutters, and possibly sparks.