NFU Insurance Survey

[tobydog]

I'm currently insured with NFU and have been since 2009. Being a thatched and timber framed tinder box we have had to comply with their additional requirements like having fire extinguishers, fitting smoke detectors, chimney cleaning, etc, which we would do regardless. Each year we go to battle on the premium and agree something halfway. This year, for the first time, they have written to us advising that they need to carry out a survey of the property. The reason they gave was because the rebuild cost declared has exceeded £300,000. To be honest, I think that £300,000 is possibly OTT but haven't got round to getting a proper rebuild valuation done. Is anyone else in the same position with NFU?

 

[Flyfisher]

We're with NFU for our (mostly) timber frame house, though we don't have the added complication of thatch.

Two or three years ago they insisted on a survey of the property though they didn't explain why. Our rebuild cost is greater than £300k, so that might be the reason.

They said the survey might identify 'required' or 'recommended' things to be addressed and that these would usually be for security or safety reasons. If any 'required' things were identified we would have three months (I think) to address them or they would have the option of adjusting or cancelling the policy. 'Recommended' things would be just that and left to our own discretion. The survey itself was carried out by an independent specialist, not the NFU, and consisted of one chap walking around the place for a couple of hours.

Given the state of the place, I was rather expecting a long list of things to do (e.g. updating locks, installing smoke detectors etc) but the survey chap seemed very sensible and knowledgeable about old houses and was not at all 'jobsworthy'.

The eventual report identified no 'requirements' and the only 'recommendation' was that we should consider getting a couple of fire extinguishers - in other words, no action required, no changes to our policy and no price increase.

 

[skier-hughes]

When we first bought our house, rebuild value was considerably more than £3000,000 and although NFU had insured it for around 50 years they insisted on doing a survey. For 10 years they gave us reasonable quotes then 3 years ago it rocketed by around 75%, we couldn't get a reasonable quote from them, so changed to LARK from listed property club(??) Who were around our previous figure.

 

[Flyfisher]

We've been through pretty much the same experience. Started with NFU then they had a period when they were not at all competitive, including vehicles. We also moved to Lark during that time. The NFU became sensible again and we moved back to them, including two cars and a tractor. I much prefer to have a single insurer for everything (or as much as possible) and am willing to pay a little extra for this if necessary, but not very much extra! I really detest the modern trend of having to regularly change insurers, energy suppliers, telephone, broadband, mobile phones, etc. :evil:

 

[tobydog]

Thanks for your responses. The renewal comes up in early March and I'm hoping they don't expect me to take a days holiday for the survey.

Last year I enquired about having the house looked at in or to establish a proper and up to date rebuild cost. I was surprised how limited my options were as not many local surveyors did this work. I presumed most of them did. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and get it done.

 

[Flyfisher]

Getting a rebuild cost for a listed property seems to be a specialist job. I've been using figures from the specialist surveyor we used before taking on the house, but I have a suspicion it's a bit on the high side. Beware, however, of using too low a figure in case the insurance company deem you to be underinsured and in the event of a full claim might only pay out a proportion of the insured amount. Eg house insured for £500k, rebuild cost is actually £1m, insurance company deem it to be 50% underinsured so will only pay out 50% of the insured value, I.e £250k.

Personally I think this is a travesty but I understand it's how many insurance companies work. It's especially bad because the onus is on the insurer to correctly value the house, yet most owners don't have the expertise to do so accurately. So you end up having to pay for a professional valuation from an 'expert' that the insurance company cannot dispute. Or just choose a 'safe' figure yourself and take a risk.

Or, talk to your insurer specifically about this issue. I did this with NFU and they were very sympathetic to the issue to the extent that they confirmed they would NOT reduce a claim in this way if the insured amount was not enough to cover a full rebuild. My local office even put me in touch with their head office to further confirm this. So, using the above example again, if a house is insured for £500k then NFU told me (in writing) that they would payout UP TO this amount in the even of a claim . . . Even if the full rebuild cost was, say, £750k. Of course, in this example, you'd still be underinsured for your total loss, but at least you could be sure that you'd receive the amount insured. This makes it less risky to self-value your own rebuild cost if, for example, you decide that £500k would be sufficient to build a new house suitable for your needs - so at least you're not left homeless if your house burns down completely.

I suppose it's a similar sort of thing to 'classic car' insurance where you can specify an 'agreed value' for the vehicle with the insurer rather than accept the vagaries of the 'up to market value' clause.

BUT THIS IS NOT ADVICE, just my experience with my local NFU office. What I would advise anyone with similar concerns is to talk with their insurer and have the specific conversation, with everything confirmed in writing.

PS: there is a 'rebuild cost calculator' somewhere online, but it is really only for new/standard build houses. Might be a useful introduction though.

 

[skier-hughes]

I agree with Flyfishers words.
Our house would sell for about £750,000 but is insured for nearly £1.5m. This is because if we were to have half of it burn down it would cost significantly more to replicate the build we have now.
If the whole house burned down, we could probably rebuild a modern house for say £500,000.
You've also got to look at outbuildings, walls fences etc all need to be taken into account when valuing how much it would cost to rebuild.

Didn't one of our members have a massive rebuild cost for a wall that was as much as the cost of the house?????

 

[tobydog]

The NFU survey itself went well. The only issue (Recommendation) the surveyor had was that I boost my 1kg car fire extinguisher with some proper ones. When the report came through it specifically recommended 2 x 2kg dry powder which have ABC capability of putting out most small domestic fires. I was somewhat sceptical about dry powder because I know from experience that they are awful things to use. When I tried to buy two of them today one website made specific mention that dry powder is not recommended for indoor use under BS5306-8:2012 due to the resulting mess plus causing vision and breathing problems.

The company that NFU uses is RiskSTOP Limited and they were somewhat lost for words when I raised this point with them. At first they said it might be an error in the report until I said that the surveyor actually mentioned dry powder on the day. I pointed out that this didn't exactly fill me with confidence. At the time of the survey I suggested that I get CO2.

What specific fire extinguishers do others have in their properties?

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting that they mentioned your car extinguisher - I wouldn't have thought they'd care about that for house insurance, unless you insure your car with them as well perhaps?

I was somewhat surprised that our NFU survey did not require any fire extinguishers and only recommended that we consider them. They didn't mention any specific type.

I'm still 'considering' though and, like you, I'm not at all keen on the powder types. While looking for CO2 suppliers I came across 'water mist' extinguishers which, apparently, are safe to use on all types of fire. Have a look at this info and video: https://www.safelincs.co.uk/ultrafire-water-mist-fire-extinguishers/

Seems almost too good to be true!

Incidentally, we also had our local fire brigade come out for advice but they were very reluctant to discuss fire extinguishers and said they certainly wouldn't recommend any particular types. My feeling was that they don't want to encourage anyone to actually fight a fire but only really want to stress the importance of alarms and having planned exit routes.

 

[tobydog]

FF - it was probably the way I worded my post. The reason the surveyor queried my smaller extinguisher was because it was a car type extinguisher that I was using for the house Hence the recommendation to get some real ones.

Those water mist extinguishers are pretty impressive, although they are a somewhat more expensive than traditional types. The website in the link is actually the one I was using to get the dry powder version and they were the ones that pointed out the issue with dry powder indoors. I'm still waiting to hear back from RiskSTOP Limited on what they now recommend. As they are the surveyors for NFU, I'm somewhat stuck with what they recommend because that's what NFU will expect me to get.

I agree with you on what the fire brigade would prefer we did. Get out quickly and call them. NFU would prefer I risk life and limb to save them a new thatch :roll: .

 

[skier-hughes]

I'm surprised they didn't tell you fire extinguishers are not for fighting fires, but for clearing an exit route if required.

 

[tobydog]

NFU send out a small booklet for thatched property owners. Amongst other things it states:

Don't waste time investigating the fire.
Don't try to tackle the fire yourself.

"We recommend that you keep two 2kg Dry Powder fire extinguishers in your home for dealing with small fires, such as a rug catching fire, for example"

The RiskSTOP Limited report advised:

"To comply with the Thatched Insurance Condition, it is required that at least two fire extinguishing appliances are placed in readily accessible positions within the home. Class ABC Dry Powder extinguishers of a 2kg size are considered suitable"

No specific mention of positioning to assist exit.

In all honesty I probably would have a go at putting out a small fire. Maybe I should just get the local fire brigade round to advise where best to keep the extinguishers.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ah, fair point about the 'car' extinguisher - makes sense now.

Yes, I can appreciate the Fire Brigade's stance on amateur firefighting but in practice who would not attempt to tackle a fire in the home while it is still in its early stages? But always with one eye on being sure you have a safe route to retreat.

I understand the difficulty you now have given that a specific type of extinguisher has been required, though perhaps it's worth writing to NFU and asking if a water mist type would be acceptable to them. Alternatively, buy both types - they surely couldn't deny a claim if you didn't use a powder type extinguisher if you had determined that it was too risky.

The water mist extinguishers do seem more expensive but based on that video I linked they have the advantage of being suitable for any type of fire, which is probably a good thing if we ever have to react quickly to an emergency situation and the last thing we'd want to think about is what type to use (assuming we even have a selection to choose from, which I'd guess most households won't).

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm surprised they didn't tell you fire extinguishers are not for fighting fires, but for clearing an exit route if required.

They did mention that we should have planned exit routes, though it's not something I've ever been particularly worried about as the house is quite large and has multiple staircases and external doors. But it's a good point.

I've always imagined using an extinguisher for things like coals falling from an open fire (though I'm happy that we've now replaced them with stoves, which are far safer) or a kitchen fire. Basically something small and localised. But once it gets too big then I'd shut the door, get out and call the professionals!

 

[MatthewC]

The church opposite has two sorts of extinguisher - water and CO2. I understand the CO2 are for electrical fires and the water for the rest. Beware that water ones are quite powerful and can make a mess far worse than a small fire (ask me how I know...).

About five years ago I found a dry powder one in the bell-ringers room up in the tower (which is, after all,the one place where I would want an extinguisher). When I discharged it, it operated for a few seconds and then stopped, so I just unscrewed it and poured the powder in the bin.

In the RAF we used to have BCF extinguishers which were meant to put out everything. Eventually they decided that they were also a hazard to health so we then had water, CO2 and foam (for fuel fires etc) (IIRC).

 

[88v8]

The water mist extinguishers seem to be the best bet. Compared to the house burning down, the cost is rather irrelevant, surely.....
I would certainly try to put out a fire. A new fire can be put out with a garden hand mister.
I would try to tackle any size of fire. At the moment, anything ambitious would be a problem, as all our outside fire taps are frozen.

Dry powder is a bit of a nightmare. The powder gets everywhere and is very corrosive. If you spray the interior of a modern car it gets in the electrics and that is probably the end of that.

Ivor

 

[tobydog]

Still not heard back from the surveyor but I'm going to go for the water mist anyway.