Newbie Alert

[IFWaters]

Hello. I am a Period Property Virgin looking for some general advice.

We (me, wife & 2 kids) are in the process of buying a house in a village just east of Norwich. There are quite a few jobs to do potentially.

Firstly , its approx 1900 - does that count as Period or should I be cast asunder for buying a (just) 20th Century house ?

I know people will want to see pictures but I will put them up once we have moved in.

I'm trying to get an idea of the best order to do things in. Briefly , the house needs :

a) a wood lintel in the lounge replacing with an RSJ and the associated bay window structure with a glass roof needs completely rebuilding.
b) roof looks very tired, back half had been bodge-jobbed with some tiles replaced and lining put underneath, front has lots of broken tiles & chimneys need work. also walls have some blown external render and whole thing needs repainting.
c) plumbing - has an old Mexico boiler in an internal chimney , owner wouldnt tell us what bills were, probably needs re-siting and replacing. also there are a lot of very thick heating pipes running over quite a few walls - would like to put as many under floors as possible.
d) lots of extra powersockets but fusebox quite modern - very limited old style braid wiring
e) each room needs re-decorating, some replastering
f) there are a mix of original sash windows (lots with horrible aluminium secondary glazing inside) - ideally we would like to refurbish originals if the frames can take double-glazing and replace upvc
g) 2 bathrooms need 70s/80s suites replacing
h) kitchen and attached plastic conservatory and 'lean to' joining to garage needs a lot of work - probable knockdown and rebuild in style of house (getting rid of plastic additions)
i) garden - this is definitely last

I think the advice of live with it for a year is valid but was thinking of getting the roof and lintel repair done this year. any general advice - ie its best to do c/heating first because xyz would be welcome. I plan to be on here regularly with all manner of questions ! we will be living in it as we work on it.

 

[worms]

Really, just bumping this one back up in the hope that others will address the issues, and to say welcome to the forum!

I think I would be doing roof and heating first, although I would also do a corner of the garden so I had somewhere to escape to with the obligatory PPUK Kitkat.

 

[Moo]

I'd second Worms's advice - get the really structural stuff done first.
Then sort out major things like electrics and heating, partly because it will make life more comfortable, and also because they're jobs that will probably involve a lot of messy work and you want to get that sorted before dealing with aesthetics (nothing worse than having crude channels cut into your lovingly decorated walls).
And the point about the garden is an important one (esp. the KitKats)

 

[Flyfisher]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't think there's a cut-off date for period properties and even if there was I should think it would be a fair bit after 1900, so I don't think you need worry about joining the party on PPUK.

The thing about living with a new home for a while is really just to allow a bit of time to settle into how a period property 'works' before rushing about ripping things out and changing things that might be regretted later. But, as worms has said, I don't think this really applies to structural things, which should ideally be fixed a soon as possible and before they cause any further damage.

It sounds like you have a bit of a project on your hands though, so please drop in frequently with updates and questions and it probably won't be long before you're answering other new members' questions based on your own experience.

 

[Lime]

The problem many people have when moving into a new property is that they take a lot of old ideas with them.
Most old houses need to be lived in for a while to appreciate what is worthy of dislike or otherwise.
Ripping out the guts of a house to make it just like everyone elses' is not the point surely?

Your list of structural changes appears to be in the right order.
The lintel and roof (don't forget gutters, drains etc) would be my first projects too.
However much of what you think now will change once you have lived in the house.
Some needed improvements will become crystal clear while others that you once thought important will be less so.
The wiring needs to be inspected for safety particularly as you have children but don't rush things through because you may end up regretting it.

IMO the kitchen would be the first place of major change.
the leanto will be a depressing reminder of what needs to be done so try and tackle that soon.

As for the garden, don't leave it to run wild.
A few hours spent in the garden in winter are worth a month of work in summer.
If you have an established garden there will be many surprises popping up over the year if you give them a chance and they don't get covered up with rubbish or overgrowth.

 

[Moo]

IMO the kitchen would be the first place of major change.

I'm not so sure about that. That's what we did in our son's house, but we've lived to regret it. His bog-standard Edwardian terrace has the usual long back extension that housed (and still houses) the kitchen at the far end. We all remember the agony of ripping out the old one and installing the new one in exactly the same place.
We now realise that we'd have been better off moving the kitchen back towards the main house and putting french doors into the garden at the far end. And while the plumbers were dealing with that they could have installed the plumbing for a downstairs loo (essential once little people come along).

So my advice would be to live with the kitchen as it is for the time being (provided, of course, that it's reasonably usable).

 

[middi]

Welcome to the forum, and yes, you definetely qualify. ( anything built after 1960 would qualify as mass production/modern :wink: )

Let us see, your roof is a bit dodgy, the plumbing is old, the electrics likewise, some of the plaster is crumbling, the windows are in bad shape and probably you don't know how big the garden is as you are unable to walk in it. LOVELY, we will have plenty to talk about ( and may even help to save your marriage )

Seriously though, it is all ( mostly !) cosmetic
You need to formulate a plan as to what you need to do , how much you have to spend and how much work you can tackle yourself. You may well need the help of a "friendly" builder ( or two ) to help you talk through it.
The first priority is to make sure the house has a good ( insulated ? ) roof and wall, the windows and doors are draught proof and the house base walls are dry. The rest is just a question of finance and how much " improvements " you want to make .

Middi

 

[LadyArowana]

Welcome, lots of good advice from the wise people. It does sound as though you have quite a project to work on, good luck.

 

[IFWaters]

Thankyou very very much for the comments to date.I will be back here like a regular in a pub.

Point taken re kitkat corner of the garden. As soon as we are in there i will regale you with pictures and problems.

 

[Feltwell]

Argh, I just typed out a huge reply to this and the @)*(&^ website lost it as I pressed submit! :evil:

Welcome IFWaters, your situation sounds very similar to how mine was 5 years ago. I shall post more when I've finished muttering at this machine.....

 

[Feltwell]

I'll post in stages...

Nothing wrong with a 1900 house, mine is only a year older. ANOTHER East Anglian though? At this rate this site will get renamed PPEA! Welcome from a Norfolk boi who has defected to foreign parts!

How old are your kids? We moved here with a 2 year old and a 6 month old - now 7 and 6 years old respectively, plus we have a 2 year old as well now, so plenty of experience of living in and working on an old house with young kids around. I suspect our house was in a slightly better state than yours but not much, we had to put a new roof on and sort out heating straight away.

From your post:-

a) "Wood lintel" - I take it a surveyor has told you this needs doing? A bressumer, i.e. a big wooden beam supporting the first floor brickwork over a bay window, is a perfectly normal feature of a Victorian house and if it's in good condition then it doesn't need replacing. They do sometimes deteriorate though, they are vulnerable to the junction between a bay roof and the wall leaking. Or is it that a past owner has taken a wall or chimney breast out and not adequately supported what's above? It's surprisingly and dangerously common.

If this work has to be done then I'd advise you to do it as soon as possible, preferably before you move in. It's not a long job - we fitted an RSJ in a previous house in a day (the length of the job can vary) - but it is messy and disruptive, involving lots of knocking off of plaster and knocking holes through to temporarily support the house whilst the old beam is removed and the new RSJ put in. It needs several bodies to get the steel in position and it will be much easier in an empty house with no kids or furniture for the builders to fall over or damage!

b) The roof. It's perfectly possible to live in the house whilst the roof is being replaced, we put a complete new roof on here during a very cold winter without too many problems. Is it actually leaking or does it just look tatty? That will really determine how much of a priority it is. On my parent's "new" house the roof was in a bit of a state, but a couple of hours work on some ladders with some bits of lead to patch a few areas up and it was waterproof again, and lasted a couple of years until they had it stripped and properly re-done.

This house was different. It was leaking in several places, and it was so difficult to get to (it's a very tall house) and generally in such a poor state that we decided very early on to have the the whole roof recovered. There was no point in doing work inside that would be ruined by a leaking roof.

If you do decide to patch your roof up in the short term, be aware that when it is replaced you will inevitably get some cosmetic damage internally, especially to ceilings. We have some ceilings attached directly to the bottom of the rafters - you can't expect several hundred nails to be driven in as new roofing laths go on to those rafters and not have the 100 year old plaster below suffer a little.

You say that chimneys need work, but think of all the other jobs that may need doing or could be done whilst scaffold is up, as the scaffolding is expensive:-

- Do you plan to use any chimneys for an open fire or a stove in the future? If so consider fitting liners whilst you've got the access
- Cap off any unused flues to keep rainwater out, but remember they must still be ventilated
- Sort out television aerials and satellite dishes (if you must!)
- Consider if fitting skylights will be worthwhile - it's an easy and relatively cheap job whilst the roof covering is off and it can bring a lot of extra light into a dark space.
- Look at the condition of any joinery that's up there. We took the opportunity to replace a deteriorating dormer window and some fascia boards, and repair some gable end timberwork
- Think about guttering, esp. if you want to use cast iron. We did this, it's much easier to take old corroded cast iron down and replace it with new from scaffold than from a ladder.
- Think carefully about the roof covering you use. We used a concrete tile that was sold as a replica of our original clay ones, which I now regret as the clay would weather in better.

Bear in mind that you need Building Control approval for major roof repairs, which includes bring roof insulation up to modern standards, which isn't always easy on an old house particularly if the house has attic rooms or the first floor rooms intrude into the roof space , i.e. have sloping ceilings in whole or part.

Blown render could be an advantage if it's cement based, easier to remove! Be careful what you replace it with, loads on here about lime render and the use of a breathable finish. Unless it's causing immediate problems with damp I'd leave this for now.

More to follow later....

 

[Feltwell]

c) Heating - yes, moving the boiler can be very intrusive, but it really depends on the exact layout of the house and what you've already got there. For a new boiler you really want it to be on an outside wall with a drain nearby. Why not get a plumber in at an early stage to look at what needs doing? A bit odd that the present owner won't discuss running costs with you - rather implies that they have something to hide! Please do get the current boiler serviced and checked before using it if the current owner can't provide proof of servicing.

The usual plumbing problem is the same as for electrics - any work you do often affects at least 2 rooms at the same time, e.g. to move that radiator in the lounge means taking the floor up in the bedroom above. If you're making any major changes I think I'd want to do this as early as possible as it will cause disruption and disturb decoration.

d) Wiring. Are you saying you have much old-style wiring still in place? Sounds like it's worth getting an electrician in to test what's already there to verify if it's safe. We too have a chronic lack of sockets, and those that we do have are on hideous surface mounted pattresses. But, we know the house was completely rewired in the 80's, the consumer unit is only about 7 years old so we're pretty confident it's all safe. We've been extending the relevant ring main whilst decorating each room, adding extra sockets and getting rid of the pattresses.

If you've got to rip out and replace much of what is already there though, then like the plumbing I personally would want to do this sooner rather than later. If it's just adding extra sockets to exisiting circuits you should be able to do that as you go. Again it partly depends on where the circuits are - ours are under the floor, both on ground and first floor, so adding extra sockets to a room only means causing disruption to that room. If the ground floor ring main for the sockets runs above the ceiling, dropping down to the sockets, then you may need to take part of the floor up in the room above to make changes.

Also consider non-power wiring. I put a complete alarm system in, which meant lots of cables, so I cleverly put lots of telephone extensions in at the same time as it wasn't much extra work. Except that actually I wasn't very clever, as I should have put data wiring in that could have supported internet connections as well as telecoms. Now that the kids are older and have inherited an old laptop of mine, we've found that wireless isn't that reliable in this house so I'm having to run Cat5e data cables round the place, with all the hassle of moving furniture and carpets to get under the floorboards to do this.

e) Redecorating and replastering. This was well down our list (and still is ), apart from my daughter's bedroom that was so hideous it had to be done quickly! Before replastering, consider using lining paper - you really can cover a multitude of sins with the right paper. Loads of stuff on the forum about lime and the importance of breathable plasters and finishes.

f) Sash windows. If a previous owner has taken out the sliding sashes only and inserted aluminium casements into the original box sash frame (is that what you're saying?) then you're lucky - it should be reversible with new sliding sashes, and at much less cost than having a complete new box sash window made. Yes you can have DG sashes, in fact Building Regs will insist on that if you abide by the rules. Don't worry if the box frame needs work - they have to be really bad before they are not worth repairing.

But, much as you may not like the look of them, if the current windows are functional I'd put this down your list. Replacing windows is not that intrusive a job and only affects 1 room at a time, it's something you can do gradually. If the current box sash frame is OK then it wouldn't even affect the room decoration, although if it needs to come out (for some repairs this may be necessary) you inevitably get some plaster damage.

g) 2 bathrooms is a result - much easier to work on one if you've another for the family to use! If these are functional then I wouldn't make them a priority for now, but do think about what services you want for the future, e.g. if you want an electric shower and you're doing other work it may be worth putting the cable in and leaving it coiled up in the ceiling void for future use.

h) If possible I'd live with the kitchen for a while and see how you end up using it, it's an expensive thing to get wrong. As for your conservatory, don't be in too much of a rush to get rid of it - you might not like it but in the short to medium term, if it's dry and structurally OK then you will be glad of the extra space to store building materials if nothing else. When it comes for time for it to go then Ebay is your friend, you'd be amazed at what people will buy. My grotty sectional concrete garage went on at 99p, sold for £100 and the winner had the job of taking it apart and carrying it away.

i) Garden - as others have said, don't rule this out, especially if your kids are young. We cleared ours, got rid of old broken greenhouses and sheds, and put some grass seed down to make a (rough) lawn. With some swings on an old apple tree, a slide and a trampoline the kids have had many happy hours out there and that has given us more time to get on with the house. It's far from perfect and we'll need to come back to it and do much more work but it's nice to have the space and sometimes pottering around out in the garden is a great therapy if you're fed up of working on the house.

So there we go - only opinions, and only mine, but hopefully you're still awake and that is some use! One thing you didn't say is what you're happy to tackle yourself. This does make a big difference - getting a plumber out 10 times will cost you a lot, but if you're doing the work yourself then doing it piecemeal is much less of a problem.

Good luck!

 

[Flyfisher]

d) lots of extra powersockets . . . .

Personally, I find it practically impossible to live without multiway plug-blocks because of the plethora of things to plug-in. Kitchens tend to be a special case where it's generally acceptable to have many socket outlets, but in most other rooms I think it would be very invasive. I use about a dozen sockets in my study, which are currently all fed from a single outlet and three plug-blocks (not a safety issue as they are all correctly fused and the overall power requirement is relatively low) but I can't think of a sensible alternative. The thought of half a dozen double sockets fixed into the wall is not particularly appealing.

I suspect this is a fairly common issue in period properties. We have a bedroom with no power sockets at all (more if we count the attic rooms) and even throughout the ground floor, sockets are fairly sparse. No doubt I'll eventually get around to adding some more but, in practice, what is an adequate number and distribution these days? A double outlet in every corner of every room?

 

[skier-hughes]

We put 6 double sockets in the bedroom and 12 in the kitchen!

 

[Feltwell]

I've put 5 doubles in the kids bedrooms now - originally each room had 1 double socket only.

1 you can "get at" easily for plugging in a hoover and a nightlight. 2 behind a desk for computer stuff and a desk lamp. 1 behind where a bedside cabinet goes, for an alarm clock and reading light, and another for years to come where another cabinet may go if a double bed is in the room. It doesn't take long to use them up!

 

[MdB]

I put six double sockets into each bedroom and 10 double sockets into the lounge / dining room with more in halls / porches etc.

We use one of the bedrooms as an office and six doubles didn't turn out to be enough by a long way. We have four extension leads with 4 sockets each plugged in and overall in the room only one spare socket without anything plugged in.

 

[AMc]

b) roof looks very tired, back half had been bodge-jobbed with some tiles replaced and lining put underneath, front has lots of broken tiles & chimneys need work. also walls have some blown external render and whole thing needs repainting.
c) plumbing - has an old Mexico boiler in an internal chimney , owner wouldnt tell us what bills were, probably needs re-siting and replacing. also there are a lot of very thick heating pipes running over quite a few walls - would like to put as many under floors as possible.

Just East of Norwich describes me too. If you decide to get your roof done I can PM you a number for the blokes who did mine who might be interested in the job.
If you can't get the bills then ask where they get their oil from and who serviced it. Our oil boiler died 2 weeks after we moved in, beginning of December and I had a hell of a job to get someone to come and look at it. A lot of firms said if they hadn't serviced it before they weren't going to touch it. Several suggested they might be able to fit me in in January! In the end Broadland Fuel put me in touch with a firm who came that day and brought it back to life.

Good luck in the new place - avoid the temptation to start ripping out until you've had a chance to think and plan.