New to period properties and need help!

[hollygc]

Hi,

Hope this isn't a totally daft question, this is our first home and first period property (well I grew up in one but didn't have much to do with looking after it!). We are having our garden redesigned, and one of the possible options is to remove the ugly old concrete path running beside our annexe building and have the lawn come right up against the annexe with a winding path cutting through the middle. I love the idea and think the building would look really pretty with some plants in beds next to it, but I am wondering, is there a chance that bringin the soil up to the edge of the building is going to create damp in the walls? I have done some internet research and not got very far - some sites mention vegetation against wall as a source of damp in period properties, but from what I can see in the village we live in, most of the older properties do have gardens that go right up to the edge of the houses which seems to suggest it was the way they were built originally and doesn't cause too much trouble. Certainly on the other side of the annexe, which forms the boundry between us and our neighbours house I know they have lots of beautiful plants growing in a big bed against that side. Does this mean I am worrying about nothing? Just don't want to do anything that could damage the building!

Can anybody advise? I know the building is made of clunch, our local chalky building stone, but am uncertain of the age, I think probably it is 18th century or maybe earlier. It is definitely earlier than our house which is a 19th century bakery. I'm afraid I can't figure out how to put a picture up, but a brief description of the building is that it is a pale creamy colour (which I guess might be a lime render/wash?) and has a black band (bitumen?) around the bottom of the building set slightly in from the main walls.

Thanks very much, sorry if it is a silly question!

 

[JanJonWestWales]

so to start with basics - The age precludes a damp proof course. The bitumin is evidence of at least trying to add one. Depending on the age and state of the bitumin, it could be all but useless.
however, you also indicate that it may be lime rendered (at leat on the outside), this will help any water ingress to come back out, so is a good sign.
I would try to find out for sure.
Is there lime render on the inside??? this would also help with shifting damp.

I wouldnt bring earth up to a solid stone wall - it is bound to bring some damp, even if not evident inside.

I would recommend a gravel boundary (6inches wide, and as deep as you can go) or french drain against the wall will really help with drainage.
You could then lawn or plant up to that, with perhaps a plastic barrier between earth and gravel.

 

[MikeG]

......... I know the building is made of clunch, our local chalky building stone........

Oooooh, I'd like to see a photo or two. Clunch is a fascinating material, being soft (often described as putty-like in the ground), but hardening up when cut and built into a wall. Are you in Norfolk? (Norfolk has lots of clunch buildings). A photo will help with guessing the age, too, as will a photo of the roof timbers. I hope you've looked in the loft already?!

 

[Penners]

Hope this isn't a totally daft question

First things first, Holly, there are no daft questions (except for one or two failed attempts at humour, for which I am usually a culprit). The whole idea of this forum is for those who don't know to ask, and those who do know to answer. So don't be embarrassed to ask anything!

Clunch is a very variable material, depending on whether it was quarried shallow (in which case it will be soft and friable) or deep (in which case it will rather harder and more durable, having been squeezed by the weight of material above it. I wonder how soft and crumbly your wall looks.

It's not impossible that the existing concrete path might be causing a certain amount of damp in the clunch wall by (a) preventing moisture from being given off by the earth and (b) causing rain-bounce to splash on to the wall. So bringing the garden up to the wall might not worsen the existing situation. However, as with so many damp questions, it's impossible to be sure until you've done it. One thing is certain, clunch and damp are not great friends, so you are wise to want to control it as much as possible.

That bitumen coating might also be holding damp in the wall, rather than preventing it from getting in.

I agree with JJW that your best bet would be not to allow the earth to rest against that wall. In fact, you might want to consider lowering the soil level in order to expose a bit more of the subsoil wall to the air, helping it to dry out. The trench needn't be very wide - even 6 inches can be enough - and if the side of the trench has a tendency to crumble, perhaps retain it with some vertical slates, or something similar. Alternatively, fill the trench with coarse gravel - this will allow a certain amount of airflow against the wall.

One other idea: rather than moving the path to a new location you could dig up the concrete and create a new path of gravel in the same place, allowing the soil to breathe and reducing rain-bounce. This is somewhat less radical than the trench idea, but if the clunch wall is not currently showing significant signs of damp, it might be all that's needed.

If you've gained the impression that damp is a tricky, unpredictable beggar, then you're right on target!

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Is the house on a slope? Towards or away from the wall?

Our C17 (stone) cottage had planting up to the walls front and back. At the back the ground slopes towards the wall, with levels nearly 2 feet above the internal floors. So there, we inserted a lowered ditch full of gravel and a land drain. Otherwise I would have left it alone, it was beautiful.

Against another wall we removed concrete, lowered the level and inserted a gravel ditch/land drain.

In both cases I have been surprised how ineffective gravel is at creating a dry volume. If one digs down an inch or so, the gravel is wet. The water hangs there due to surface tension. I think its main advantage is preventing rain bounce, and providing a means of ingress to a land drain. That being so, there may be little practical difference between gravel and a free-draining soil.
How is your soil? Claggy? Free-draining? And the subsoil? Is the garden mossy? Or dry?

At the front we have a partial concrete terrace up to the wall. But the level is not high, and we get little weather on that side. So there's not a problem.

It all depends. The real no-no is high ground levels relative to internal floors.

If you have only recently moved in you won't know what the PO might have done to cover up evidence of damp. Is the external wall newly painted/lime-washed? Inside... new plaster/paint?
So there may be a problem or not. And planting up to the wall may make a difference or not.

Beware of what you plant. Probably you have minimal foundations. Obviously perennials would not be an issue, but I would be wary of large shrubs.

Do agree though that removing the concrete would probably be a good idea.

Ivor

PS pictures via Photobucket or the ilk. Copy and paste the img code. No size limit.

 

[hollygc]

Thanks so much for the help everyone, you've given me a lot to think about. And thank you very much 88v8 for the tip on how to post images. I will (try to) post some below.

JanJon - I am not sure if it is lime rendered on the inside. The previous owner did alot of work I believe, on the annexe building to turn it from what was essentially an outbuilding into a connected annexe that she used as a studio. New windows were definitely added and a toilet plumbed in and several other additions. From what I understand from our neighbours either side who have both lived here 20 or so years, the building was originally much like the little barn at the end of our garden, which is mostly clunch construction and a tiny bit of brick here and there with no render (I will post some pictures of this too). From my limited experience, the annexe it looks plastered on the inside, but I am not really sure. I think there may be parts that are brick construction in there too, like the barn, as some walls are smooth and others are very bumpy. I have a strong recollection of the previous owner mentioning lime render when we first saw the outside of the building, but I could be wrong so I will try to find out for certain. The gravel boundry sounds like a possible good option, thank you

MikeG - Clunch is very interesting isn't it? It seems too soft for a building material to me, but half the village is built in it! We are in north east Cambridgeshire, on the suffolk border and close to the Norfolk border too. There are several villages round here of which the old buildings are predominantly clunch and our village has a new housing estate actually sited inside one of the old clunch pits. The building style around here seems to be a mix of brick and clunch for the later houses. Our house is a mix, from the outside it looks like brick construction but alot of the internal walls are very thick and bumpy and the previous owner told us these are the clunch ones. I haven't managed to get up into the loft yet, but I have included some photos of roof timbers in the barn, but I don't know if they are the original ones. There is an interesting beam in the annexe itself that I have included a picture of and The barn also has a sweet old manger in it. I would love to date it accurately! I am sure the house is a 19th century building as I have a few victorian pictures of the baker standing at the door and the sign over the window. The main reason I think the annexe is older than the house is that our neighbours who live in a big Georgian house, have seen inside the barn and they think it is the oldest building in the little collection of ours based on the architecture. But I don't know for certain, it could be the same age as the house.

Penners - Thank you! I felt a bit silly, wondering if I was asking something completely obvious. I had a feel of the walls and they don't feel crumbly, but the clunch is soft. A scrape with my fingernail left me with some debris under my fingernail so the Clunch doesn't seem hard to me. I definitely haven't noticed any crumbling however. From what you and JanJon say I think we will definitely abandon the idea of bringing soil up to the wall. I will investigate the idea of a trench to allow more airflow to that wall and potentially having gravel path. Glad you think the concrete might be a problem in itself as I hate the stuff and will be very glad to get rid of it!

88v8 - thank you The house itself is lower than the garden, but our annexe is on the same level as the garden, apart from a small section. Your observations about the gravel are very interesting. My assumption has always been that it is good for drainage (I put it in the bottom of my plant pots sometimes) so it is interesting to know that it might not be so. Our soil is lovely actually (I am very excited about it!) it has very good structur and drains well, I think because of all the leaf mould that has gone into it over the years from our walnut tree. It isn't a particulary damp garden, there isn't any moss (except what falls off the roof tiles!), although it is quite shady in parts because of the tree. I know that in parts of the garden (particularly the far end) we hit clunch quite quickly when digging but the majority of the garden does not seem to be like this (certainly not my flower bed anyway, I haven't investigated under the lawn yet). The floor level in the annexe and outside ground level look pretty much the same to me, so perhaps we don't need to completely preculde the idea of soil against the wall just yet. We moved in a year ago, and the walls were all freshly painted and I think recently plastered too. I haven't noticed any signs of damp in the annexe yet. Perhaps we have to experiment!

 

[88v8]

Yes, some characterful timbers in there.

And some cement pointing grrr. Hopefully the person responsible for that did not have too much other involvement.

Gravel is fine as a drainage medium. And it works in a French drain. But what it does not do in the context of a French drain, is create a dry zone against the wall, as the surface tension between the small stones holds the water. For that, the stones would have to be significantly larger than you would want to walk on.

When those buildings were new, I would bet that bare ground up to the walls was the norm.
As you live in a village where this construction predominates, perhaps you could go and chat to some other dwellers, see how their gardens are configured. Theory is great, but practical experience is greater.

Walnut... we had a walnut tree in our previous garden. Quite young, maybe 40' tall. It had never been hacked, and had some lovely low branches. Wish I could have brought it with us. You probably know to be careful if digging nearby as the roots are quite near the surface and will bleed if damaged. It's wonderful to have a mature tree of any sort, something money can't buy, but a walnut is really special.
And if you have an airgun, organic nut-fed squirrel tastes quite like rabbit. One per person, casseroled or in the pressure cooker.

Ivor

 

[MatthewC]

The floor level in the annexe and outside ground level look pretty much the same to me

In my experience, that's your issue here. You need to have the outside level 6 or even 8 inches lower than the inside floor, hence the suggestions above re a gravel filled trench beside the wall.

For instance, I had a concrete path past my lounge to the front door; it was the same level as the lounge and the hallway, so the suspended floor in the lounge had rotten skirting, rotten floorboard ends and a rotten joist. I lowered the concrete when the drive was done to give a 2" drop, and a width of 8" was left as a trench beside the wall; this was then partly filled with gravel leaving a 4" - 5" leeboard to the floor level. The wall has dried and the lounge is not damp at all.

I've also done the same sort of thing along the side and at the rear of the property, with complete success (so far, and it's been six years).

For more info see my blog at http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/ and filter for "dampness" and "rotten wood" etc - go to the oldest posts from 2010-11.

Do you have any other damp issues?

Matthew