New timber buildings

[michael]

I’ve been looking at some new build apartments going up in my area recently. They are located on the seafront and a pastiche of the neighbouring Victorian 5/6 story terraced houses. Only problem is they appear to be built almost entirely out of timber. PT timber I would imagine which is then all covered with an outer skin to resemble rendering or lime plastering. It’s almost like an oversized dolls house.

All the apartments have sold so people must have faith in them and are willing to invest their hard earned cash.

I suppose buildings from the 16th and 17th centuries were constructed from timber, seasoned timber granted and generally hard wood and many of those are still standing. Like wise many of the apparently flimsey prefabs from WWII are also still with us today.
I wonder what the expected lifespan is on these new and admittedly ghastly PT timber buildings.

When I first saw them going up, my first reaction was horror but then again the original seafront Victorian terraces were probably only built out of ‘Bungeroush’ I think I’ve spelt it right (a mixture of rubble and lime)

 

[Penners]

Only problem is they appear to be built almost entirely out of timber. PT timber I would imagine which is then all covered with an outer skin to resemble rendering or lime plastering.

Don't tar the structure and the design with the same brush. You may not like the pastiche appearance of the buildings, but that doesn't mean that their timberframe construction should also be damned.

A well engineered timberframe building is probably the best way to build, these days. It's structurally sound, long-lasting (if properly maintained) and above all it carries a low environmental impact.

OK, the structures you refer to are softwood rather than hardwood, but pressure treated softwood will have a good lifespan, provided the building has been properly designed for the material.

As we seek to reduce our national carbon footprint, I reckon you're going to see a lot more timber buildings, so you'd better get used to them!

 

[Moo]

Any chance of a picture of the new-builds?

 

[Matt Green]

OK, the structures you refer to are softwood rather than hardwood

Which is certainly a shame as I for one would love to see balsa used in more structural applications.

The rate of growth is more of an issue: Scots pine is a fine building material, the heartwood is very durable. Fell it after 30 years and theres not a lot of heartwood by volume and hence the need for pre-treatment.

 

[biffvernon]

Fell it after 30 years and theres not a lot of heartwood by volume and hence the need for pre-treatment.

Eh?

 

[middi]

The majority of house buyers, especially first timers, haven't a clue what materials are used to construct these properties, most of them do not particularly care, as long as they are new, efficient and fitted with many mod-cons as possible and most of all affordable.

The buildings themselves are extremely efficient and as Penners mentioned they will last a long time because they are well protected from the elements with suitable modern barriers.

It is a totally different building concept, If the same timbers were to be used to construct a home and clad it in a 15/16th C. manner it would rot last 10 minutes( maybe 15min. !!! ).

 

[Gervase]

I'm a little more dubious about the longevity of modeern timber-framed buildings. A couple of guys I work with have been involved in building them, and say that the projected lifespans these days are anything from 40 - 50 years. That's not to say that in October 2047 a house built today will suddenly fall down, but that is when major structural members, fixings and coverings reach the end of their working life.

 

[bower1]

I've never been convinced by modern timber frame building because people, in general, do not maintain their buildings properly (me included, probably!). When the rot does set in, there is nothing holding them up.

Another point with timber frame buildings over two storeys. I saw a fire in a 4 storey timber frame building that was nearing completion in Bridgwater. It had completely collapsed in on itself. Now maybe the final fireproofing had not been installed, but I wouldn't fancy my chances in there. Of course they replaced it with 2 more.

Where my brother lives in Calgary, most new houses are timber framed, but the outer skins are now often brick effect plastic. I assume we will be seeing that here soon.

 

[Matt Green]

Fell it after 30 years and theres not a lot of heartwood by volume and hence the need for pre-treatment.

Eh?

As in there's less heartwood in a tree felled after 30 years compared with one felled after 200 years. Should have been more speicfic.

 

[Nemesis]

Jut to add a little more to the debate:

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=427&storycode=3093934

 

[Penners]

Scots pine is a fine building material, the heartwood is very durable. Fell it after 30 years and theres not a lot of heartwood by volume

But use the same wood (ie: pinus sylvestris) grown in the Baltic, or other cold climate region, and it will have taken 80 - 100 years to reach commercial felling girth. Far more growth rings, more lignin, more heartwood.

 

[Penners]

the projected lifespans these days are anything from 40 - 50 years. That's not to say that in October 2047 a house built today will suddenly fall down, but that is when major structural members, fixings and coverings reach the end of their working life.

I've never really understood this concept. Surely any building can have a virtually infinite lifespan, provided it's properly maintained.

OK - it'll end up like my grandad's garden spade*, but it will still nominally be the same building.

* Three new heads, two new handles...

 

[Matt Green]

Scots pine is a fine building material, the heartwood is very durable. Fell it after 30 years and theres not a lot of heartwood by volume

But use the same wood (ie: pinus sylvestris) grown in the Baltic, or other cold climate region, and it will have taken 80 - 100 years to reach commercial felling girth. Far more growth rings, more lignin, more heartwood.

Absolutely, so it's not so much the fact that softwood is being used, just that its not so great quality these days. I was trying to get across the point that not all softwood is bad. I've seen a few excellent quality softwood floors removed because the owner/specifier is obsessed with oak though.

 

[biffvernon]

Anyone tried improving the longevity of their pine building by painting it with Falun Red, the traditional Swedish paint. It comes as a dry powder and you mix it with linseed oil. The pigment comes from one particular area of Sweden and is mostly an iron oxide but has a lot of copper and zinc in it. They've been using it for centuries.
Any colour you like so long as it's red.

 

[DaveBrigg]

I understand that in a fire, timber frame buildings can outperform their steel equivalents. Steel girders will expand and warp when subjected to extreme heat, whereas timber joists, if not directly exposed to flame, take a lot longer to have their structural integrity damaged. Fire doors tend to be made of wood for a similar reason.

The house below was being built in the Canadian Rockies, where timber is rather more plentiful than Lincolnshire.

 

[Gervase]

Blimey, would you look at the purlins on that! :shock:

 

[biffvernon]

Wow. Looks like they had to cut some tree down to make room for the house and the purlins are just a way of using up the spare timber.

 

[michael]

Many thanks for your responses on this. I must say I was surprised by the support many of you have given, for the concept at least, of modern timber frame buildings.

Now I feel I must have a rant… Call me old fashioned but it seems to me that the only options for new builds today are oversized soft wood dolls houses or oversized steel and glass bus shelters.

I am genuinely concerned that the towns and cities that we are putting up today are mere “put them up quick pull them down quick” stage sets that don’t contribute one ounce of soul, integrity or definition to our built environment. Gone are the days it would seem of building totally identifiable, comfortingly familiar semi permanent monuments.

I can imagine in the not too distant future that if you were to move away from any British town or city for more than 25 years you would come back to a completely different city as nothing would have been built with a sense of permanence to add definition, familiarity and identity to the place. You might as well get off the airplane anywhere in the world as each built environment is going to be very similar and all very temporary.

I’m also concerned about the building materials being used for these modern structures as it seems to me that they don’t age gracefully. Glass and steel is generally very cold and creates a very unappealing environment when built on mass. Furthermore it looks even worse if it’s allowed to get dirty. The modern day weather resistant coverings on modern timber frame buildings also have that manufactured look including the plastic window frames.
None of the above materials are able to obtain a patina that allows them to blend gracefully into the landscape.

There, that said, I don’t like the new timber frame apartments being built around the corner from me.

 

[MdB]

There, that said, I don’t like the new timber frame apartments being built around the corner from me.

I'll go out on a limb here and have everyone disagree with me... I don't like the Falmouth Maritime Museum. It is clad in green oak boards which to me haven't aged well and make it look like a run down warehouse (which is part of the point as this is what it replaced sort of). Everyone I speak to loves it but it just doesn't work for me. The wood has changed colour in parts (as you would expect) but has also gone mouldy and streaked with water stains. Its as bad as mouldy concrete to me (which it is also made of but that's another issue).

Feel free to harangue me, I know I'm in a majority of one on this.

 

[Penners]

Anyone tried improving the longevity of their pine building by painting it with Falun Red, the traditional Swedish paint.

I once helped a Swedish pal apply a new coat of Falun Red to his house. It benefits greatly from the fact that you don't have to do much in the way of preparation on the old coat. Just make sure there are no major cracks in the timber, or significant muck sticking to it, and then slap the new coat over the old.

As Biff says, the colour is very much the signature of the traditional Swedish house.