New Door - Old Hole

[thiambal]

HI Guys,

I have had a real stroke of luck today. My old victorian terrance has all its old sash windows (now beautifully restored) but a horrible old 1980's wood front door. I was stolling along a nearby street today and passed a house with a brand spanking new front door and the original door laying in a side alley. I knocked on the door asked if they had and plans for it - they did.....taking it to the dump! So, one winning smile later and the door was mine.

Of course, as with all things in life it is not as simple as all that. Naturally, my door frame is a bit smaller. The door is going to need cuttting down by 1" width ways and 4" in height. Fortunately, the central glazing bar (it's a 4 panneled half glazed door), if unusually narrow and so once cut down the door will not lokk out of proportion or obviously not from our house - not 100% perfect but hey...its free and no longer heading for the dump.

The reason for the rather large 4" reduction in height is that for some reason out door frame in a non-standard size and is for some reason only 75". To cut it down this far will mean cutting in half the lower of the two tennons in the bottom rail. I realise that this is not ideal but.....

and here at last is my question....

will I get away with it? I am hoping that given there will be one remaining tennon completely in tact, half the lower tennon and that the timber should have done all the shrinking and moving it is going to do in the last 100+ years - it should be OK. Any suggestions?

Attached is a picture of the door attractively modelled by Mrs C (she is the pink shape behind the glass). The purple lines indicate the area of the door which will be visible from outside once the door is trimmed and taking into account the proportion hidden outside by the door frame.

Cheers

Sam

 

[yamin]

No advice, but what great luck!

 

[middi]

If you have a lower double tenon and you cut through only one of of the tenons you should still end up with quite a solid door and should't look any different to the untrained eye. The problem is to keep the proportionate dimensions of the top rail and the side stiles. This can be quite tricky to do and is offensive to the eye if these are of unequal dimensions.

I would tend to remove half inch from both the sides and top and three and a half inch from the botton, this would entail repositioning the the key hole and handle a bit deeper inthe stile

 

[Moo]

a horrible old 1980's wood front door

for some reason our door frame is a non-standard size

Before you do anything drastic, have a good look at the existing door-frame. Modern off-the-peg doors tend to be smaller than Victorian and Edwardian ones and installers often solved the problem by adding bits to the sides and top of the frame.
You may well find that all you have to do is remove these additions and restore the opening to its original dimensions.

 

[middi]

Good thinking Moo. ( you must have been a carpenter in your previous life :wink: )

 

[Moo]

you must have been a carpenter in your previous life :wink: )

Perhaps, middi. But the reason for the thought is because our son's house suffers from a B&Q-style door and I noticed the 'padding' when I was painting the hall.

 

[Nemesis]

for some reason our door frame is a non-standard size

None of our door frames is any sort of 'standard' size - in times past, there weren't standard sizes. They approximate, but frames and doors were made individually and usually locally.

 

[Moo]

But the OP lives (as does my son) in a victorian terrace, so I think it's probably fair to say that neighbouring front doors are unlikely to have differed much.

 

[Nemesis]

They may have looked the same, but they will not necessarily have been made to exactly the same measurements - an approximation probably. Even with terraces, at times they were built by different developer and builder. Not saying this is the case here, but it happened. And there was no off the peg door 'standard' measurement.

We have doors in the same house , indeed the same room, which certainly are not any 'standard' size, and cannot simply be moved from frame to frame.

 

[Penners]

Mrs C (she is the pink shape behind the glass).

Well, I think you might have allowed Mrs Cto get dressed before she attractively modelled your door.

I don't think the width reduction is going to be visually significant, but I suspect you may have to be a bit more careful about losing 4" off the height, as Middi observes.

And Moo's suggestion is well worth investigating, before you resort to cutting the door. The proportions of doors are a fine balance, and it's surprising how easy it is to lose that balance with only a minor change in shape of some sort.

The bottom rail of a door is always a lot deeper than the top. This is not for any structural reason - it's purely aesthetic. If you cut too much off the bottom, then I fear you might find the door to be visually uncomfortable - particularly bearing in mind that you'll have to fit a drip bar to the exterior.

There isn't much you can do about this, other than to see whether perhaps a little of your 4" could come off the top rail (obviously without making that look too spare). But it's a tricky decision, and one that you can only make according to your own feel for what looks right.

As to the structure of the door, I doubt that losing one of the two bottoms tenons will be deleterious. But if you're a little nervous about its strength after losing one tenon, then you can always drill into the outide face of each stile and through into the bottom rail on each side, at a point where the rail is only butting to the stiles, and glue in a good, strong length of dowel.

 

[thiambal]

Thanks for your thoughts. Alas the frame is 100% original with no bits added. On inspection the current door has also been shortened by cutting half-way through the lower tennon.

I am concernerned about the possible change in proportions but in the picture I have balanced is as far as possible with the lower rail still about twice the width of the top. The purple line around the door in the picture shows what will be visible from outside once cut down. I would welcome opinions as to whether this still looks reasonably in proportion?? this is with 1" off the top and 3" off the bottom. I think it maintains an almost equal distance around the windows.

I did not plan to fit a drip bar - the door is set back into an open porch, it never gets wet and the original door (next-door still has theirs) does not have one. Again - open to suggestions

 

[Moo]

Interestingly, I had a similar experience to yours last year.
Son had opened up a blocked-up (internal) doorway and needed a door to fill it. I was trotting down his street and saw what looked just the job in a front garden. The owner was mystified as to why I would want it, but was glad to be saved the trouble of disposing it, so I dragged it back to son's house and, lo, it was a perfect fit - the twin of the other two downstairs doors.

 

[Penners]

it was a perfect fit - the twin of the other two downstairs doors.

Perhaps originally made by the same joiner?

 

[Schoolmarm]

I am going to be unpopular now but, I think removing that amount will make it look cheap and modern. It looks like a substantial door if left uncut.


Sorry. It is lovely though.

 

[Penners]

I am going to be unpopular now but, I think removing that amount will make it look cheap and modern.

Unpopular?? Dear marm - how could you even think that?

I agree that it's going to be difficult for thiambal to retain a visually pleasing proportion to the door. However, given that the alternative was the local dump, I suppose any continued existence is to be preferred, even if it's less visually appealing.

Which is a thought I have every morning, when I look in the mirror.

 

[Schoolmarm]

I agree, it would be a tragedy if it had gone in the dump. What about selling it and trying to get a better fitting door with the proceeds?

 

[Lime]

Yes, I think it looks in proportion.

I'd stand the door upside down after cutting and allow some modern waterproof glue to soak in and around the cut tenon.
Applying a storm or drip bar (with screws) would give it a little more strength if it is thought the door needs it after cutting.
IMO the difficulty will be positioning the yale lock.

 

[thiambal]

By the wonders of modern technology here is the door electronically trimmed and put in my front door frame (ignore the attractive scaffolding pole fence - a project for next year).

I could sell the door but no guarentee I would find a suitable reclaimed door or that this one would not just be butchered down by a person who buys it. Decisions, decisions!!!

I have considered the yale lock issue, I am not sure I am going to refit a yale lock but if I do I will get one of the 40mm centered ones (rather than the 60mm centered hole currently in the door) and reposition to a new point.

 

[Penners]

Well, I do think the bottom rail looks a bit spare - sorry!

I hadn't realised that you've got a transom light. Had you considered raising the door head a bit to accommodate the new door uncut (on its length)? This would only reduce the transom light by a modest amount.

 

[thiambal]

I do know what you mean Penners.

I had considered raising the height of frame - the transom light is unecessarily large in my opinion - however, the electricity consumer board etc is position just behind it and if raised the door will catch on it so no can do.