New bathroom - how to ventilate / dehumidify - how?

[Athers1971]

Grade 2 listed with 60+cm solid limestone and rubble walls. We have architects plans submitted for PP/LBC to split the old pantry into two with a shower/toilet/sink at one end and utility room at the other. The use of the room will generate a lot of moisture and humidity.

Obviously these drawings have little detail on them, and before I go back to the architect, I was just wondering what bathroom ventilation 'systems' are appropriate for a listed building? There is an old opening window at the bathroom end of the room, but I guess I won't be able to rely on kids and guests to use this all the time.

Ideally don't want to lose the glass (it has many lovely imperfections and has horizontal etchings on the internal side making it 'frosted') in the window to install an 'extractor' and I'm guessing CO won't like that or venting an extractor through a hole in the wall on the ground floor rear elevation?

Any thoughts on how to ventilate / control humidity without creating a big hole in the wall?

Many thanks.

 

[Lacan07]

Grade 2 listed with 60+cm solid limestone and rubble walls. We have architects plans submitted for PP/LBC to split the old pantry into two with a shower/toilet/sink at one end and utility room at the other. The use of the room will generate a lot of moisture and humidity.

Obviously these drawings have little detail on them, and before I go back to the architect, I was just wondering what bathroom ventilation 'systems' are appropriate for a listed building? There is an old opening window at the bathroom end of the room, but I guess I won't be able to rely on kids and guests to use this all the time.

Ideally don't want to lose the glass (it has many lovely imperfections and has horizontal etchings on the internal side making it 'frosted') in the window to install an 'extractor' and I'm guessing CO won't like that or venting an extractor through a hole in the wall on the ground floor rear elevation?

Any thoughts on how to ventilate / control humidity without creating a big hole in the wall?

Many thanks. it out

I guess you could still extract the moist air but run it out (via ducting) to a more conspicuous part of the house (upwards to the loft?), a bit like a full blown MHVR system. Not cheap though.

Others on here are experts when it comes to the do's and don'ts of listed buildings however.

I suspect you may be relying on a window. Wish my walls were 60+cm!

 

[a twig]

Don’t suppose you have any existing penetrations other than the window that you could utilise? Otherwise I suspect your options are much as Lacan outlined. Is your CO friendly to the extent you could have a hypothetical chat about possibilities rather than going straight into LBC?

There are some lovely cast iron vent covers etc that would make it fairly unobtrusive

 

[fernicarry]

Was going to suggest the same. My kitchen extract is routed up into the loft through the bathroom above it. This was made somewhat easier by having a false ceiling in the kitchen and the studwork in the bathroom was stepped out anyway to gain height for the shower. I used rectangular profile ducting to keep it all fairly slim. You can get even slimmer ducting than I used although its a bit spendy. A long run like this needs to be insulated to avoid the steam condensing and running back down again. Kitchen and the two bathrooms come together into one fan unit and go out through a single exhaust terminal through the roof. It is like MVHR but without the HR. The continuous trickle is good for general air quality and it gets told to boost when a shower is running (via flow switches as the built-in humidistat is hopeless).

 

[Toby Newell]

Grade 2 listed with 60+cm solid limestone and rubble walls. We have architects plans submitted for PP/LBC to split the old pantry into two with a shower/toilet/sink at one end and utility room at the other. The use of the room will generate a lot of moisture and humidity.

Obviously these drawings have little detail on them, and before I go back to the architect, I was just wondering what bathroom ventilation 'systems' are appropriate for a listed building? There is an old opening window at the bathroom end of the room, but I guess I won't be able to rely on kids and guests to use this all the time.

Ideally don't want to lose the glass (it has many lovely imperfections and has horizontal etchings on the internal side making it 'frosted') in the window to install an 'extractor' and I'm guessing CO won't like that or venting an extractor through a hole in the wall on the ground floor rear elevation?

Any thoughts on how to ventilate / control humidity without creating a big hole in the wall?

Many thanks.

Sorry, I don't know enough about the planning rules to offer advice, but I must say I am more than a little surprised.

Extracting excess moisture relates to thermal comfort and also health via mitgation of possible respiratory complications caused by excessively moist air and secondary issues caused by mold.

I impressed one of my clients so much he employed me as an unqualified QS in his business. We were the largest sub contractor in the SE UK undertaking social housing upgrades under the governments Decent Homes Scheme.

This legislation aimed to provide social housing tennants a minimum standard of accommodation with a very strong emphasis on thermal comfort. Most of the refits we did were kitchen and bathroom, which we charged between £8 and £10k for. Sometimes we painted the entire propeties, fitted new boilers, plastered walls etc, so a few of the jobs reached £12 to £14k.

I don't know what the overall cost was to the tax payer but, for example our quote for a local authority like Brent, would be in the low single millions. I think each London borough would of set aside low £tens of M for the scheme, meaning low £hundreds of M for London and presumably over £Billion nationwide.

Kitchens and bathrooms were prioritised as being seen as most important not just for increased utility but to human health.

We had to fit extractors to every single property, every bathroom and every kitchen. This was to mitigate damp issues which are one of the biggest problems in social or low income housing.

I find it peverse that antiquated listed planning laws are so far behind the curve, just as they were with denying, until very recently, disabled access provision, on aesthetic grounds.

This is tangibly about human health, I guess the people in charge of the listed planning rules consider period home owners a rung below social housing tennants.

Thankfully you can now fit a disabled ramp to your listed property, presumably, in time you will be able to fit adequate extraction to kitchens and bathrooms, a luxury afforded to social housing tennants years earlier, when the numbskulls who decide on listed planning rules drag themselves further into the 21st century and the realm of common sense and decency.

Sorry, but I think it's ridiculous. I am pretty sure a pugnacious individual could fit whatever extractor they liked (within reason) and argue the case quite effectively in the high court citing the above. It would take quite a dim judge not to see the obvious incongruity.

 

[Stevers]

When we refurbished this place we had the option of fitting the original Passivents that draw air up through the house onto the roof using convection with vents that open fully when they detect moisture by use of two different materials laminated together. The ducts run up from the bathroom and a shower room through the stud walls in rectangular ducting, and through the loft in insulated foil ducting. They're still working after 26 years, but are no longer listed as available.

 

[88v8]

Any thoughts on how to ventilate / control humidity without creating a big hole in the wall?

No. When I wanted to put an extractor fan in for the kitchen of our C17 GII, I just did it.



As Twig said, there are nice iron vents, although I didn't have that option.



Rear elevation? Pfft... just do the rest of the job and core drill the wall in readiness. I used an NOS Vent Axia like one sees in pubs, so at least it looks 'period'.

 

[Toby Newell]

+1 for 88v8.

It's hardly a set of room length uPVC sliding doors facing the parish church is it ffs? It's a small, low observable alteration with supreme utility / health benefit ratio compared to any aesthetic deleteriation.

If it were me I would fit it and if the CO did his best Rumplestiltskin impression I would smile and tell him, good luck finding a compliant magistrate.