We have been looking (not physically, but from afar) at purchasing a period property in Wales, which is listed Grade II*. Is there any real difference between this listing and just plain grade II? Do we have to sacrifice two goats and a chicken instead of two goats to get permission to move a chair?
- Thread starter bobirving
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Penners
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Hello Bob - welcome to the forum.
Yes, there is a difference between Grade II and Grade II* (although I understand that the whole listing system is going to change at sometime in the not-too-distant future). I can't give you chapter-and-verse on the differences, but there are certainly more constraints on changes to a GII* than there are on a GII.
As for your goats and chickens, I can't vouch for their efficacy. We always found my wife's chocolate cake to be quite persuasive, whenever the CO called.
Yes, there is a difference between Grade II and Grade II* (although I understand that the whole listing system is going to change at sometime in the not-too-distant future). I can't give you chapter-and-verse on the differences, but there are certainly more constraints on changes to a GII* than there are on a GII.
As for your goats and chickens, I can't vouch for their efficacy. We always found my wife's chocolate cake to be quite persuasive, whenever the CO called.
Flyfisher
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Our house is GII*. I've successfully applied for two separate LBCs with no problems and am currently working on a third application. My understanding is that GII applications can be dealt with entirely by the local council but that GII* and G1 applications must be passed to EH for their approval (although this is apparently going to change, as Penners noted above).
In my case, the EH involvement added nothing to the application complexity from my perspective and the local council must have dealt with everything. I can't really imagine the CO would agree to anything that EH would likely object to anyway, but all applications are unique of course.
I would recommend talking to the relevant CO and discussing your plans for the property before committing to purchase. I appreciate this may be easier said than done in some areas, but it worked very well for us. If your plans for the property are sympathetic then I'd expect the CO to be delighted to have you as an owner - these properties need TLC to survive.
In fact, we get on so well with our CO that he now lets us move the chairs to wherever we want, whenever we want (but don't tell anyone! :wink: ).
In my case, the EH involvement added nothing to the application complexity from my perspective and the local council must have dealt with everything. I can't really imagine the CO would agree to anything that EH would likely object to anyway, but all applications are unique of course.
I would recommend talking to the relevant CO and discussing your plans for the property before committing to purchase. I appreciate this may be easier said than done in some areas, but it worked very well for us. If your plans for the property are sympathetic then I'd expect the CO to be delighted to have you as an owner - these properties need TLC to survive.
In fact, we get on so well with our CO that he now lets us move the chairs to wherever we want, whenever we want (but don't tell anyone! :wink: ).
Hello Bob
I would endorse the previous posts and just add my experience of having a Welsh G2 compared with a relation who has a G2* (again in Wales). We have had a relatively smooth ride with our charming CO though, perhaps inevitably, have had to compromise, i.e.pay a lot more than we wanted to for various items. My aunt, however, having had a very good relationship with her previous CO, has had much more involvement with CADW (Welsh equivalent of EH - roughly). They have vetted and dictated just about every change and recently, with a change of CO, more stringent requirements have been imposed. I suppose it depends to some extent on how much you want to change. If it's already more or less 'done' then it's unlikely you will have much more to do with them. Would love to see some pics....
I would endorse the previous posts and just add my experience of having a Welsh G2 compared with a relation who has a G2* (again in Wales). We have had a relatively smooth ride with our charming CO though, perhaps inevitably, have had to compromise, i.e.pay a lot more than we wanted to for various items. My aunt, however, having had a very good relationship with her previous CO, has had much more involvement with CADW (Welsh equivalent of EH - roughly). They have vetted and dictated just about every change and recently, with a change of CO, more stringent requirements have been imposed. I suppose it depends to some extent on how much you want to change. If it's already more or less 'done' then it's unlikely you will have much more to do with them. Would love to see some pics....
Thanks for these replies, which more or less confirm my suspicions...
We are really only at a very early stage with this and I'm not sure whether we will be able to take it any further, because the only way that we could purchase the house is by sharing it with others and that can take a lot of organising. The house is 17th century - the best photos are here, I think, http://www.profilehomes.com/documen...with-land-for-sale-Llanrhystud-west-wales.pdf . The main problem is that it doesn't have any heating other than open fires and electric radiators, so how we could get agreement to run pipework around it, I don't know... Then dividing it into flats would probably cause the average conservation officer a heart attack.
Ta very much, everyone
Bob
We are really only at a very early stage with this and I'm not sure whether we will be able to take it any further, because the only way that we could purchase the house is by sharing it with others and that can take a lot of organising. The house is 17th century - the best photos are here, I think, http://www.profilehomes.com/documen...with-land-for-sale-Llanrhystud-west-wales.pdf . The main problem is that it doesn't have any heating other than open fires and electric radiators, so how we could get agreement to run pipework around it, I don't know... Then dividing it into flats would probably cause the average conservation officer a heart attack.
Ta very much, everyone
Bob
Gareth Hughes
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Speaking as "The Average Conservation Officer" (on here at least), flats would simply not be an option (no matter how difficult it's been to sell so far, judging by how far the price has dropped from the very optimistic start). It's also dirt cheap compared with pretty much anything at all closer to any major city. 12 bedrooms and 54 acres?
Sadly it's most likely to become a weekend retreat for someone with a banker's bonus, who will add little to the local community, but that's not an exclusively Welsh problem.
The conservation officer directly responsible for it does, occasionally, post here, however. But with a village name that's pronounced Llanrusted, it's not far off Llareggub in the appropriately-named stakes :?
Sadly it's most likely to become a weekend retreat for someone with a banker's bonus, who will add little to the local community, but that's not an exclusively Welsh problem.
The conservation officer directly responsible for it does, occasionally, post here, however. But with a village name that's pronounced Llanrusted, it's not far off Llareggub in the appropriately-named stakes :?
jocelyn plummer
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What a lovely house.
Flyfisher
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That's an awful lot of property for not a great deal of money - by South East standards at least. It looks to be in sound condition as well. I can imagine the problems (impossibility?) of getting permission to convert into multiple flats, but presumably there'd be nothing to stop a bunch of friendly people to purchase it as some sort of self-sufficiency 'commune'. Four separate couples disaffected with their lives in the London rat-race could easily sell their tiny £300k flats in London and club together to buy this place between them, probably with no mortgage. Amazing.
Feltwell
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My thoughts exactly. What would £795k get you in London? A 4 bed terraced townhouse in a middling area with no car parking and a postage stamp sized garden I'd guess?
I just can't imagine actually living in a house the size of Mabws Hall though - unless you've got a seriously large family, you'd just end up living in a small part of it, surely? Which would seem to be a terrible waste. I guess that is why - together with it's "remote" location and the high cost of running such a house - it isn't actually worth that much, comparatively speaking.
The estate agent's comments along the lines of "this room and x room could easily be opened up" doesn't seem to take much account of the listed status!
I just can't imagine actually living in a house the size of Mabws Hall though - unless you've got a seriously large family, you'd just end up living in a small part of it, surely? Which would seem to be a terrible waste. I guess that is why - together with it's "remote" location and the high cost of running such a house - it isn't actually worth that much, comparatively speaking.
The estate agent's comments along the lines of "this room and x room could easily be opened up" doesn't seem to take much account of the listed status!
Gareth Hughes said:
So you don't think there is any way that we might be able to divide it up - there are precedents, viz. http://www.cohousing.org.uk/thundercliffe-grange and http://www.dol-llys.co.uk/.
Admittedly these had been pretty worked over before they were split up, but Thundercliffe, downstairs, looks better than it's probably looked for a century. They've turned the servants' quarters into apartments, blocking off the odd landing and creating bathrooms from them...
Oh well, nice idea... wouldn't mind hearing any suggestions....
Cheers
Bob
FamilyWiggs
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bobirving said:
I suspect a bigger problem is this statement in the particulars:
"Note: Neighbouring property. Interested parties should note that there is a neighbouring property adjoining the mansion at the rear. In the vendors, and their agents' opinions, this does not impinge upon the mansion's privacy or detract from the enjoyment of the property."
Which means, in everyone else's opinion, it does, and this may be why the price has been dropped so far. Neighbours ca be unpleasant... It really does look a wonderful bargain and fantastic from the photos. Google Earth isn't quite so flattering:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Mabws+Hall,+Llanrhystud,+Dyfed+SY23+5BD,+United+Kingdom&aq=&sll=51.915037,-3.881017&sspn=0.003984,0.013078&ie=UTF8&geocode=FeXyHQMdmHvB_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Mabws+Hall,+Llanrhystud,+Dyfed+SY23+5BD,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.296305,-4.105217&spn=0.001975,0.006539&t=h&z=18
Still, it could be a wonderful home for someone, and the thought of 12 bedrooms and 54 acres is making me dream.... :mrgreen:
JoceAndChris
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Dear bobirving
With the greatest respect that sounds like a non-starter. Firstly, you would find it impossible (especially if our wonderful Gervase is the CO
) to make the changes you'd require. Secondly, the cost of that!!! All those kitchens, bathrooms, dividing walls. Thirdly, it's immoral, in my opinion. And fourthly, that level of collaboration with others would be so hard! I found it hard enough in London having to liaise with 5 other flats in the building, and that was only really dealing with external maintenance, not the whole business of conversion.
I wish you every success in your search for a period property and am sure you will find a building more suited to what you need - do come back and post about it!
They could, but don't you think part of the dream of leaving that sort of set-up in London is to get away from people?
I suppose it could be a yoga retreat, or luxury hotel.
You're right of course but that's not how Londoners see it. We left because we couldn't afford anything other than a smallish flat in a nice area and I wouldn't live in a horrible one. But at the time, if I'd had the requisite £795 for a terraced townhouse in Crouch End or Muswell Hill I'd have been overjoyed - all that lucrative work, my friends, all that culture, so very accessible. Now, I couldn't go back, unless I had a Beacon Cottage on Hampstead Heath, and even then I wouldn't want to deal with the tubes or crowds any more.
With the greatest respect that sounds like a non-starter. Firstly, you would find it impossible (especially if our wonderful Gervase is the CO
) to make the changes you'd require. Secondly, the cost of that!!! All those kitchens, bathrooms, dividing walls. Thirdly, it's immoral, in my opinion. And fourthly, that level of collaboration with others would be so hard! I found it hard enough in London having to liaise with 5 other flats in the building, and that was only really dealing with external maintenance, not the whole business of conversion.I wish you every success in your search for a period property and am sure you will find a building more suited to what you need - do come back and post about it!
Flyfisher said:
They could, but don't you think part of the dream of leaving that sort of set-up in London is to get away from people?
I suppose it could be a yoga retreat, or luxury hotel.
Feltwell said:
You're right of course but that's not how Londoners see it. We left because we couldn't afford anything other than a smallish flat in a nice area and I wouldn't live in a horrible one. But at the time, if I'd had the requisite £795 for a terraced townhouse in Crouch End or Muswell Hill I'd have been overjoyed - all that lucrative work, my friends, all that culture, so very accessible. Now, I couldn't go back, unless I had a Beacon Cottage on Hampstead Heath, and even then I wouldn't want to deal with the tubes or crowds any more.
JoceAndChris
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FamilyWiggs said:
Ugh! I wouldn't consider it then.
Penners
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If I wrote down all of the adjectives I can think of for you, Mr H, "average" would not be on the list. :wink:Gareth Hughes said:
Bob - it seems entirely superfluous to add a comment to Gareth's views (what with him being a worshipful CO an' all), but one of the key considerations given to applications to alter a listed building is how that work will affect the character of the building. So unless you were able to demonstrate that dividing the house into flats would not be detrimental to its character (and I strongly doubt whether you could) then you stand little or no chance of success with your application.
Flyfisher
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JoceAndChris said:
Quite probably, though different people would have different ideas about what constitutes getting away from people. I wasn't being entirely serious, though it's interesting to consider the financially-viable possibilities. But you're also right that there must be many others who could make the move entirely on their own by swapping their modest family home in the London area you describe for a full-on mansion and country estate.
FW's aerial photo link does put a slightly different perspective on things though, and I entirely agree with his interpretation of the agent's comment.
I also agree with the above comments about the chances of obtaining LBC for conversion into flats, but the only way to be sure is for bobirving to discuss his plans with the relevant CO.
Penners
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When we were house-hunting, 18 months ago, Google Earth was my best friend. Goodness knows how many wasted viewing journeys it saved us.FamilyWiggs said:
If we had relied entirely on estate agents' photos, we'd have spent our entire time travelling to "idyllically located" properties which had a plastics factory over the back fence, a battery chicken farm across the road, a quarry 500 yards up the road whose lorries shared the same narrow access lane, a boarding kennels next door where dogs barked incessantly, or... (insert your own nightmare neighbour here).
Schoolmarm
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Ahh, here is my NFH.
" a neighbour who widens the right of way from single track to double that width in order to have a riding school with no planning permission and a light industrial business with no planning also. Then throws so many layers of tarmac planings onto it that the road is rising rapidly and losing all boundary features that would prove they have widened it"
I wish that had been visible lol!!
" a neighbour who widens the right of way from single track to double that width in order to have a riding school with no planning permission and a light industrial business with no planning also. Then throws so many layers of tarmac planings onto it that the road is rising rapidly and losing all boundary features that would prove they have widened it"
I wish that had been visible lol!!
Feltwell
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Penners said:
Before the days of Google Earth, I went to see one house that was suspiciously cheap - in the Estate Agents blurb as "rurally located", with a fairly close up picture of a nice looking house but little clue as to it's surroundings.
When we got there it was indeed rurally located - open fields opposite. However, to one side of the house & behind the garden was an HGV & Bus testing station. On the other side of the house was an Army firing range.
Not quite as spectacular as the "fishermans cottage" in Dungeness that made the news a while ago - estate agent's picture just showed the house against a coastal backdrop, whereas a different angle would have shown Dungeness A & B nuclear power stations just a few hundred yards away!
Penners
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What the estate agent also failed to mention was that he took his photo at night, without the aid of a flash.Feltwell said:
Penners
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Hello there, 'Marm! We don't seem to have seen you around the place recently. What's your excuse? :wink:Schoolmarm said:
Sorry to be ignorant, but what's an NFH?