Multiple source of damp in 1866 terrace

[RusticPig]

Since getting a survey on a mid terrace Victorian house we are planning to buy, I have driven my girlfriend crazy by researching to death how to deal with damp in an old house.

This led to the decision to get another survey done by an independent damp surveyor who highlighted the following issues:

Outside ground levels slightly higher than internal floor, council pavement to front (so doubt I can fix that one).

Rubble in walls believed to have breached damp proof course in walls

Timber floor previously replaced with concrete forcing moisture to concentrate at walls

A failed (surprise surprise) injected damp proof course in stone fronted front, rest of walls believed to be old brick.

Brick third party walls in garden attach to house walls.

Pointing and flashing need fixing in chimneas (shared with neighboor x 2).

Stone window ledge bringing in moisture upstairs and down (hopefully easiest fix)

Poor ventilation, loft has almost no ventilation and is full of rubble with new non breathable felt (hopefully another more strait forward fix). No extractor fans and fireplaces x4 poorly ventilated if at all.

All party and exterior walls I'm told are very damp as is all wood near floor level in proximity to these wall.

Oh and exterior re-pointed with concrete (opps), then covered by silicon.

House viewed in summer and did not feel that damp, salt stains visible on fireplace.

We will have to pay for work as we go so blitzing it is not an option, but plan to remove plaster before moving in.

Putting in vents, sorting loft and opening / venting fireplaces likely to be first priorities.

Damp specialist advised using a breathable membrane across floor and up to downstairs ceiling height, then re-plastering, etc. He said he saw little benefit in using lime plaster and didn't exactly have much faith in other options.

This leaves me with several initial options:

1. Do as advised by damp surveyor, but walls stay wet and cold as cant breath in or out. Use of drylining dot and dab ):

2. As 1, but with hemp lime plaster for the fun of it to help with insulation and condensation.

3. Remove plaster (GF won't let me wait a year for them to dry), inspect further and apply a horse hair lime plaster to the walls down to the concrete floor (never done this but can give it a go). Leave out skirting or anything that might go bad with damp. Put in ventilation+++ and hope that this allows the walls to breath internally enough to eventually reduce rather than increase moisture in walls. Then in event this fails try idea 1 or 2.

4. Put in breathable damp proof membrane in floor with some sort of ventilation to outside (do drilled holes work?) before covering with insulation and some sort of natural carpet (seagrass?) Lime plastering walls so they can still breath out some moisture.

5. As 4 with perhaps 1 metre of breathable damp proof membrane, so top of walls can still breathe to address penetrating damp. Lime plastered over.

I have contemplated paying someone to remove rubble from walls ( Were these old houses designed with rubble infill?) and will sort chimneys, windows and ventilation regardless. May also look at reducing outside ground at back, but cant change damp coming through party walls or council owned front realistically /:

If I can make the house breathe again, even with just one lung would be happier than sealing it off, would appreciate any input on my ideas or if someone else has a better one.

Thanks

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Option 6. Don't buy. Sorry, but the combination of factors your surveyor (who seems to have his head screwed on right) has found include several things which are essentially irreversible

 

[RusticPig]

Buying a house in England is no easy task these days. We had to choose between something soulless, small and new that stretched our budget, an unpleasant area or a house that needed work but had character. Clearly we have chosen the later and have had a very good price accepted on the property. I'm advised that the walls are strong and can survive being damp and that the walls will likely only be an issue in relation to plaster finishes and wood at ground level (which I can remove for the most part). Realise not going to get perfection.

The question, I am hoping people may be able to help with is the extent it would be wise to apply a damp proof membrane (such as newton or oldroyd) across floor and walls if at all. As well as anyone's experiences of using lime plaster in such a case - hydraulic vs putty, chance of staying on walls if no membrane, etc. Will not using a membrane help the walls breathe more?

I hope the best action will be clearer when the current plaster is off.

 

[Moo]

I'd like to second what Gareth says, and not just because he happens to be a top expert in these matters.
I suspect that if you don't follow his advice you'll end up spending a fortune and still have a rather unhealthy house.

 

[MatthewC]

Sadly I think I agree with the above two comments. Your surveyor seems largely on the right lines (which is quite unusual!), and there really is a huge amount required, some of it almost impossible. Moreover you want to do it in phases, rather than blitz it, but all this inside work is hugely disruptive and VERY messy (dust gets everywhere...). I'm glad I didn't try to live in my house whilst replastering, re-wiring and laying a limecrete floor.

The only thing for buying this would be if it really is at a knock-down price, but I doubt this as sellers never understand why you don't like their "fixes"!

 

[Lime]

Well done for researching the problem beforehand.
My advice is as above, don't buy, for two reasons.
First, as has been said, several things are essentially irreversible.
second

GF won't let me wait a year for them to dry

is a recipe for an unhappy household when so much work is contemplated and the damp will continue because of first reason.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I'm afraid I'd also agree and say keep looking for a house that you are more happy with. I live in an early Edwardian (1903) terrace which is in a poor state, but thankfully doesn't suffer any of the damp problems that your house does. 2 years down the line it is nowhere near finished, we have been without a kitchen for a year, and we will probably end up spending more money on it than it will be worth. I don't mind the last point too much as I think the house will be better than one we could have bought needing no work, but I wouldn't take on such an extensive restoration again unless I could live somewhere else while work was going on. The description of remedial action needed in the house you are looking at rather frightens me.

 

[88v8]

There are other houses... we looked for two years to find ours.
Don't sell yourself a POS.
Especially if you value GF, because she'll think the less of you if you buy it, spend a great deal of money and live in a mess for months and still wind up with a damp house that is worth no more than you paid for it despite all the money and angst.

However, it's very positive that you're willing to take on a house in this state, and that you've done the research, and that you seem to have found a decent surveyor. Take these positives and look afresh.

Here's a site that might inspire you. Better not let GF see it though.
http://www.wreckoftheweek.co.uk/

Oh, and welcome to the 'Damp and other things' forum.

Ivor

 

[LadyArowana]

The house really does sound like it needs a lot of work, and even after that it might not be exactly cosy. I got the feeling from your post that you and your GF may not be exactly aligned in your thinking on the project either. If she is someone that basically just wants a nice place to live and to get that done as quickly as possible then this isn't the house for you as a couple.

Renovations are stressful, even with plenty of £££'s and a supportive other half that just lets you do what you want to a place that has no particularly significant problems. If all you can afford is a real fixer upper then it is important that you both understand the choice and commitment you are making in order to eventually own your own place. It could mean several years of disrupted living, an uncertain outcome, and a lot more money than you think.

I know it sounds like we are all being very pessimistic, but it's better to be told the truth by people who have had some experience before the decision is made.

 

[dalivar]

This is the first time I think I've seen a thread with such a unanimous reply.
My other half and I bought our (1st) house 18 months ago, we knew it was damp from the building survey and a further damp survey but were still very optimistic that we could fix it.
Now, with a baby due in a few weeks and chunks of plaster missing from the walls (because like you, we have to do everything slowly when time and funds allow) I really wish we'd more realistic at the outset.

Whilst the house is progressing slowly its been a mentally tough year and this kind of development is not for everyone, I will definately go into a house purchase with eyes wide open next time.

There are definately other houses out there and I wish we'd waited and kept looking.

This is so true..

...spend a great deal of money and live in a mess for months and still wind up with a damp house that is worth no more than you paid for it despite all the money and angst.

I probably wouldn't have listened to anyone who said it was a bad idea at the time, but the excitement of a project only lasts until you hit the first seeming insurmountable hurdle!
Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[RusticPig]

Thank you for sharing your input and words of warning.

I mentioned the numerous potential causes of damp to highlight that a complete fix was probably not an option, and am therefore interested in what remedial options are possible. We have had a quote from a builder to do the walls in an oldroyd style membrane and plaster, etc for 3k. Were guessing that we could do a fair amount of work ourself reducing this cost. Speaking of we, the girlfriend wants character and to be able to move up the ladder quickly and understands it comes at a price. The property is at a very good price (25k less than other similiar/smaller houses in area) and should leave us with a healthy surplus after wages to either funnel into the property or to pay of a loan if we decide that route.

We would not be aware of the damp if not for the surveys and the walls feel dry. Were advised it is the bottom of the exterior walls that are damp and that the bricks are of a good quality

Are people on this forum of the opinion that removing plaster, then covering the floors and walls with a ventilated dpm such as oldroyd or newton, then applying a lime plaster would fail? If these products are used in basements would they not work on the ground floor of a terrace, perhaps not fixing the damp in the walls but protecting internal finishes?

Its funny that when we first visited the house we talked about removing plaster to expose some brick (;

Thanks again for sharing your input

 

[mattice]

If it helps, we fell in love with a house that on first impressions was OK until the survey came back, with the usual 1 liner stating damp, specialist survey required. Like you, I became obsessed with researching the subject, drove my other half crazy and eventually sought an independent survey which returned similar findings to yours, albeit probably only half as many. It was incredibly hard for us to walk away, we nearly didn't and then eventually we did. It remained on the market for a further 2.5 years before it was removed.

A few years later we bought our first house, with 'damp', albeit quite localised. I didn't make a fuss about it, conveniently using a remedial damp works guarantee as an excuse to quietly ignore it - knowing full well the remedial work has probably made the situation worse. 10 months down the line I'm (strangely) enjoying eliminating the causes one by one, but I suspect I still have a good year or two ahead. We're in no rush, it's simple in comparison to yours, and it doesn't impact our day to day living, which yours will, almost certainly.

Hopefully a glimpse at someone else's deliberations, to help (or hinder) yours.

 

[agbagb]

From what you've mentioned, I wouldn't be put off if the price is right (25K to sort / control it). But I would consider - are the neighbours damp? -has the house been stood empty (closed up)? - is it double glazed and draft proofed?.

There are many things that could be tackled ,that have been identified, that could bring the execessive moisture to manageable levels (a better way of thinking about it than "eliminating damp").

The surveyors (surface) meter has indicated damp at the base of external walls (that are lower than the external ground levels) and damp timber skirtings? But you didn't see or feel any problems caused by this? I would consider, how long since last decoration? unless it's just been decorated, problem damp should be visable. How old is the timber? if its old and damp is a problem it should be rotting. It might just be that its the coldest bit of the house so it's a condesation problem. If it's all new stuff then I would be more wary and consider the wall cavity clearing and venting and what the pavement is doing.

I'm sure various products could be used to protect the internal finishes but I would consider curing / minimising before hiding. There is so much to consider that it's difficult to say. Hope this gives a few more ideas.

 

[Roger H]

Hi Rusticpig.

You mention rubble 'breaching the damp proof course'. At 1866 it seems unlikely that the building was constructed with a cavity wall, so maybe there is some confusion here - If stone, the wall may well have been built with the usual rubble infill between two skins of stone - periodically tied together by through-stones. On the brick elevations, if 'header' (end on) bricks are present, again, this would suggest a solid wall rather than a cavity (usually comprising stretcher bricks tied with wall-ties to an internal leaf).

It might well have a horizontal damp-proof course e.g a run of slates just above ground level but to understand the problem you need a bit more clarity on how the building is constructed.

best, Roger

 

[plasticpigeon]

Looking at the list of problems, the two things that would concern me most are the pavement as it is unlikely that anything can be done to lower it, and the concrete floors. I'm not sure what 3rd party walls in the garden are. I would be wanting to replace the concrete floors with suspended floors and get ventilation under there. That would be loads of graft, but maybe not ridiculously expensive. I wonder if the party walls have a damp proof course. If not the concrete floors would be particularly bad and may be why they are so damp. If you are looking to move up the housing ladder quickly and don't plan on staying in the house for too long, is it worth taking on such an extensive project?? 25k sounds a lot but it is surprising how quickly it can disappear if you want to do things properly.

 

[JHD]

If you're looking to "move up the ladder quickly", I'm not convinced that this is the most efficient way to do it. In my, somewhat limited, experience it's difficult to recoup all the money that you've spent on repairs /maintenance on a property at the time of sale. The only time that it might appear that you've achieved this is when the market is growing. Only things that are immediately obvious on a first viewing are likely to add value to a property e.g. a new kitchen or an extension. Flip the situation around... if your survey had revealed no damp, would you have offered more money?

Another way to look at it is the cost of borrowing an additional £25k (the difference you say is between this an other similar houses), which would be about £100 per month. If you plan to be in the house for 5 years, that's £6000 (without accounting for inflation). If you can solve all the problems for less than £6k, then maybe it makes financial sense but the general consensus here is that that would be difficult even with lots of money.

So, if you're looking for a good financial investment, I'd look elsewhere. Only buy if you're doing so with your heart, which is when you'll forgive a house being less than perfect and for draining all your disposable income.