A
Anonymous
Guest
For an explanation of this graph click the link below.
A
Anonymous
Guest
A
Anonymous
Guest
er, well, try clicking this link below!
A
Anonymous
Guest
Excellent piece of work! I admire your patience, doing four runs with temperature records at 1 minute intervals!
If you repeated this with the water starting at 25C and the ambient at 4C, would the result be different? In other words, does the balance between conduction and radiation change across the temperature range?
If you repeated this with the water starting at 25C and the ambient at 4C, would the result be different? In other words, does the balance between conduction and radiation change across the temperature range?
A
Anonymous
Guest
hmmm...I could get very bored and very cold. You try - I await the results with interest <IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/smile.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="
">
">
A
Anonymous
Guest
Third time lucky, Biff!
A
Anonymous
Guest
Biff - is there any reason why you used your own combination of foil and "air-cell" material, rather than the actual commercial product, e.g. Tri-Iso Super 9?
Actually, even if you had used the real stuff, I have a slight worry that the act of wrapping it around the vessel would tend to compress the pockets of air, whereas draped between rafters, the stuff can maintain its optimum air retention.
What do you think?
Despite having the brass neck to question your results, I'm very grateful for them. My daughter is shortly having some building work done, and is considering using TIS9, but her builder is sceptical of its efficacy (despite Building Control having given it the nod). So your contribution is timely and very welcome. Thank you.
Actually, even if you had used the real stuff, I have a slight worry that the act of wrapping it around the vessel would tend to compress the pockets of air, whereas draped between rafters, the stuff can maintain its optimum air retention.
What do you think?
Despite having the brass neck to question your results, I'm very grateful for them. My daughter is shortly having some building work done, and is considering using TIS9, but her builder is sceptical of its efficacy (despite Building Control having given it the nod). So your contribution is timely and very welcome. Thank you.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi,
1st I have some spare bits of Tri Iso so if you want them Biff or anyone else I am happy to post them to you at no cost.
2nd Since the extension was built last year around this time I have been please with the warmth levels in the room.
It is in the shade and nearly half the room has windows. The roof used Tri Iso and we have underfloor heating.
The room has been pretty good and no problems with retaining heat as far as I can tell. It could be just the effect of the UFH?
To my uneducated way of thinking I would have no problems using Tri Iso (or a cheaper version). In fact I am miffed I did not know about it sooner as I think the Attic would be a damn sight warmer and if we had.
Just my 2p...
MJ
1st I have some spare bits of Tri Iso so if you want them Biff or anyone else I am happy to post them to you at no cost.
2nd Since the extension was built last year around this time I have been please with the warmth levels in the room.
It is in the shade and nearly half the room has windows. The roof used Tri Iso and we have underfloor heating.
The room has been pretty good and no problems with retaining heat as far as I can tell. It could be just the effect of the UFH?
To my uneducated way of thinking I would have no problems using Tri Iso (or a cheaper version). In fact I am miffed I did not know about it sooner as I think the Attic would be a damn sight warmer and if we had.
Just my 2p...
MJ
A
Anonymous
Guest
>is there any reason why you used your own combination of foil and "air-cell" material, rather than the actual commercial product, e.g. Tri-Iso Super 9?
Yes, I didn’t have any.
However…
>1st I have some spare bits of Tri Iso so if you want them Biff or anyone else I am happy to post them to you at no cost
Oh yes please, MJ: Tithe Farm, Church End, North Somercotes, Louth Lincs LN11 7PZ
>act of wrapping it around the vessel would tend to compress the pockets of air,
Yes, you’re probably right, it was fairly tight, held on with an elastic band.
There’s a parallel discussion going on over on the Green Building Forum, stimulated by an article in Building for a Future magazine, written by John Garbett, who happens to be head of marketing at Kingspan, a firm that does not make multifoil insulation.
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/
Yes, I didn’t have any.
However…
>1st I have some spare bits of Tri Iso so if you want them Biff or anyone else I am happy to post them to you at no cost
Oh yes please, MJ: Tithe Farm, Church End, North Somercotes, Louth Lincs LN11 7PZ
>act of wrapping it around the vessel would tend to compress the pockets of air,
Yes, you’re probably right, it was fairly tight, held on with an elastic band.
There’s a parallel discussion going on over on the Green Building Forum, stimulated by an article in Building for a Future magazine, written by John Garbett, who happens to be head of marketing at Kingspan, a firm that does not make multifoil insulation.
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/
A
Anonymous
Guest
Ok will sort some out by the weekend at the latest.
Need to find it in the shed and the shed is in a bit of a state at the moment.
<IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/wink.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="">
Also bear in mind you will have to seal the cut edges (Gaffer Tape might do) as I seem to remember that as part of the instructions.
MJ
Need to find it in the shed and the shed is in a bit of a state at the moment.
<IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/wink.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="
">Also bear in mind you will have to seal the cut edges (Gaffer Tape might do) as I seem to remember that as part of the instructions.
MJ
A
Anonymous
Guest
Possibly reverse the experiment and use ice-water in a nice warm room and just check every half hour or so.... rather than having to keep popping into the fridge...
G.
G.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Right found the stuff and have a nice bundle of it for you. Will post it by Saturday at the latest depending on how the week pans out.
I will wheel over to the forum listed as I am keen to learn more on this.
Really interesting results and you will see from the material I send you that it might be better than that made up?
Anyway I look forward to your next experiment.
Cheers
MJ
I will wheel over to the forum listed as I am keen to learn more on this.
Really interesting results and you will see from the material I send you that it might be better than that made up?
Anyway I look forward to your next experiment.
Cheers
MJ
A
Anonymous
Guest
Great. Thanks. Yes, we're having quite a debate over on the Green Building Forum.
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum/
A
Anonymous
Guest
David, I would be very interested to know how you get on the the building inspector. I have had two applications rejected in the last 3 weeks because the licence on TIS9 ran out in February and has not been renewed.
(well, not strictly speaking rejected, but they wrote and said I must re-design the insulation as TIS9 is not acceptable)
Another issue is the new Part L regulation which is in force from the 6th April. Under the old regulation it was a fairly straightforward process of showing how each element was made up - i.e. roof: tiles, gap, membrane, gap, Tri-Iso Super 9 gap plasterboard etc. And the plan reader would just accept that or not.
Under the new system this is all gone and now you have to calculate the Carbon Index of the building. The only way to do this is to use BRE approved software. Now, I have the software but it does not include any means of calculating heat loss for multi foil materials. So, if I can't calculate the heat loss then I have no way of showing compliance.
(well, not strictly speaking rejected, but they wrote and said I must re-design the insulation as TIS9 is not acceptable)
Another issue is the new Part L regulation which is in force from the 6th April. Under the old regulation it was a fairly straightforward process of showing how each element was made up - i.e. roof: tiles, gap, membrane, gap, Tri-Iso Super 9 gap plasterboard etc. And the plan reader would just accept that or not.
Under the new system this is all gone and now you have to calculate the Carbon Index of the building. The only way to do this is to use BRE approved software. Now, I have the software but it does not include any means of calculating heat loss for multi foil materials. So, if I can't calculate the heat loss then I have no way of showing compliance.
A
Anonymous
Guest
MJ
TIS9 Arrived safe and well. Many thanks. I'l get the cafetiere out again.
Biff
TIS9 Arrived safe and well. Many thanks. I'l get the cafetiere out again.
Biff
A
Anonymous
Guest
J.
What was the licence that just ran out?
What was the licence that just ran out?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Biff, I've emailed a copy to you. I did have a web link for it but the link doesn't appear to be working now.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Royal Mail 1st Class being 1st Class. Excellent.
I wonder how the results will go.
<IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/smile.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="">
MJ
I wonder how the results will go.
<IMG SRC="http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/discussing/smileys/smile.gif" BORDER=0 ALT="
">MJ
A
Anonymous
Guest
John
Actually these plans have already received listed building and building control consents (received about 6 months ago).
I have studied the architect's drawing and notes very carefully and I can't find anything relating to the thermal efficiency, carbon index, etc. of the building. The only mention at all of roof insulation is a note detailing the roof construction, and I quote:
"Red clay pantiles on tan S/W battens on Tyvek Permo Classic HD Pus on battens on Tri-Iso Super 9 etc."
There are accompanying notes from a structural engineer, but they all relate to structural strength calculations - no thermal efficiency or carbon index numbers at all.
Around 6 months ago would these have squeezed in under the wire of the latest requirements?
Actually these plans have already received listed building and building control consents (received about 6 months ago).
I have studied the architect's drawing and notes very carefully and I can't find anything relating to the thermal efficiency, carbon index, etc. of the building. The only mention at all of roof insulation is a note detailing the roof construction, and I quote:
"Red clay pantiles on tan S/W battens on Tyvek Permo Classic HD Pus on battens on Tri-Iso Super 9 etc."
There are accompanying notes from a structural engineer, but they all relate to structural strength calculations - no thermal efficiency or carbon index numbers at all.
Around 6 months ago would these have squeezed in under the wire of the latest requirements?
A
Anonymous
Guest
The Hot Cafetiere Test (Part 3)
And now, thanks to the kind generosity of MJ of Daventry who sent me an off-cut of Tri-Iso Super 9, I have been able to run a fourth test with the real deal. A jacket of the TIS9 was wrapped round the cafetiere as before. The new cooling curve, the pale green one, goes between the home-made multifoil and the two jackets using foam. The insulation was probably a little more compressed, at 20mm, than ideally and the limitations of the 'hot box' described by Actis may apply equally to a 'hot cafetiere' test. The first conclusion, however, is that TIS9 does not work as well as a thicker foam insulation but if space is seriously limited then this may be a useful material. Closer inspection of the cooling curves shows a curious anomaly. The TIS9 curve flattens out more quickly than the others, i.e. the rate at which the rate of cooling slows is quicker. The behaviour of the TIS9 is showing a subtly different dynamic. So, as they say, more research is called for.
http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/insulation.htm
And now, thanks to the kind generosity of MJ of Daventry who sent me an off-cut of Tri-Iso Super 9, I have been able to run a fourth test with the real deal. A jacket of the TIS9 was wrapped round the cafetiere as before. The new cooling curve, the pale green one, goes between the home-made multifoil and the two jackets using foam. The insulation was probably a little more compressed, at 20mm, than ideally and the limitations of the 'hot box' described by Actis may apply equally to a 'hot cafetiere' test. The first conclusion, however, is that TIS9 does not work as well as a thicker foam insulation but if space is seriously limited then this may be a useful material. Closer inspection of the cooling curves shows a curious anomaly. The TIS9 curve flattens out more quickly than the others, i.e. the rate at which the rate of cooling slows is quicker. The behaviour of the TIS9 is showing a subtly different dynamic. So, as they say, more research is called for.
http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/insulation.htm