Making sash windows get outable

[Socksitis]

Hi,
has anyone resolved the issue of making their original wooden, single glazed sash windows get outable - 1st floor habitable room and building regs -
It is a listed house, with a room that has two sound sash windows in - but the openings are not very big, BR say I need to make one of them get outable. The only way I can see is to change it for a new sash that perhaps isn't really a sash, but this is a sound window!
Has anyone come up with a way of making the sash pivot as a whole without the need for a new window?

 

[plasticpigeon]

Sounds like nonsense to me, especially as your house is listed. I'm sure if you get a conservation officer involved they will put a stop to that nonsense.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Has it always been a habitable room? If so building regs has no say, even if it's a death trap (assuming you're not doing things elsewhere to make it worse).
If it's a newly-habitable room, then you may have to comply.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Aaaaaargh!!!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Duplicate post!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

.

 

[Feltwell]

Will reply properly tonight, but there are kits available that facilitate the sash bead to be hinged and the sashes to then be swung inwards for cleaning - that may be an option.

 

[Feltwell]

Simplex system - I knew I would remember it eventually! Here's one example, others available if you Google:-

http://www.traditionalhardwaredirect.com/images/SIMPLEX_SYSTEM_FITTING_INSTRUCTIONS_2012.pdf

Would it satisfy the BC requirements? Don't know -you'd need to ask.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hi,
has anyone resolved the issue of making their original wooden, single glazed sash windows get outable - 1st floor habitable room and building regs -
It is a listed house, with a room that has two sound sash windows in - but the openings are not very big, BR say I need to make one of them get outable.

Could you give us a bit more context about this? Is it something you wish to do or is someone insisting you comply?

On a slightly irreverent note, we have many sash windows thoughout the house in ground and first floor habitable rooms and all of them would be fairly easily 'get outable' with the aid of a chair through the glazing bars :wink:

 

[Owain]

You can get "sashment" - double-hung sash windows within an outer casement frame eg
http://www.heraldjoinery.co.uk/windows/sashment-windows/

Or tilt-and-slide sash windows where you can tilt both sashes and slide them to the top, giving a larger opening for furniture
https://blackthorntimber.com/timber-windows/sash-timber-windows/slide-tilt-sash-timber-windows/

This is a mock sash window that is actually a fire exit door. I don't think it works as a window though.
https://www.timbawood.co.uk/sash-windows1/bespoke-sash-windows-london/

But all of them require a new window.

This is a handy guide to window sizes required for one system:
http://www.sash-and-case-windows.co.uk/fireescape.html

 

[Socksitis]

this is a sound window, one that isn't as old as all the others - I have managed to negotiate with the building regs lady to keep the casement as is and not have a flying mullion, by having a heat detector and smoke alarm right outside the door. But this one, well it isn't one, but two rooms that I may have to deal with. I am going to measure them today as I have read that they need to be .33m2 (hopefully that is correct) But if the opening is not that, then are never going to comply - openable or not.

 

[steveb]

Remember you don't have to comply with the approved document, as long as your building inspector is happy that you meet the regulations, which are typically only a single paragraph such as 'reasonable fire escape must be provided' or similar.

Negotiate that what you are providing (existing window plus beefed up fire alarms) is reasonable and if they agree, job done.

I don't know what the exact phrase of the regs is but it's generally in green at the top of the approved documents. Approved documents are not the bible, merely examples.

 

[CliffordPope]

It must be a tiny window if you can't get out through it.
I sometimes have to stand astride the two lowered sashes, one foot on the sill, to reach up and clear leaves out of the gutter.
I always paint the outside of the windows by sitting on the sill with my legs hanging inside, sliding the sashes up and down to rest on my legs to reach every bit of the outside.
In a fire it wouldn't be very difficult to wriggle out backwards through the lower opening, hold briefly on to the wooden and then slate sill, and drop to the ground.
Surely thousands of houses have windows like that?

 

[Flyfisher]

If you’re worried about building control insisting on something inappropriate you should discuss it with your CO.

We had building control involved during our kitchen extension that ‘leans’ onto the former outside of the original house meaning that we have a wealth of exposed oak beams forming one wall of the kitchen. When the time came for the final project sign-off, the building inspector refused to sign off because of the ‘fire risk’ of the exposed beams and said they would have to be covered over.

I explained that at no time during the project had ‘fire risk’ been mentioned or discussed (perhaps because we have four staircases and seven external doors?) and anyway I’d need LBC to make such a change so it would be best to discuss with our CO. The building inspector said he’d check with colleagues back at the office. I don’t know what discussions were had or whether he spoke with our CO but a couple of days later he called to say he could now do the final sign-off and close the project file.

I don’t blame the building inspector. He was just interpreting the regs, albeit perhaps without an appreciation of how they relate to listed buildings.

 

[Owain]

It must be a tiny window if you can't get out through it.

The idea is it has to be big enough for you to be carried out unconscious on the back of a firefighter with breathing apparatus, not wriggle out pretending you're Steve McQueen.

 

[Socksitis]

It must be a tiny window if you can't get out through it.

The idea is it has to be big enough for you to be carried out unconscious on the back of a firefighter with breathing apparatus, not wriggle out pretending you're Steve McQueen.

That would be the door then.

I have been out with the tape measure. The sash window is 95cm wide by 105cm high, but it is 3 over 6. Which gives an openable area of 33cm by the 95cm wide. Now if only it were 3 over 3 - that would meet the requirements.....

 

[CliffordPope]

If things are that desperate then they'd just kick it out surely? You wouldn't be worrying about preserving orginal architectural features if you were unconscious in a smoke-filled house?

 

[88v8]

So are you changing the use?
And not listed?

I can't see that any of our rooms would meet the current regs. Small casements. I'm sitting in one of the bedrooms that hangs off another bedroom, the opener in one room is 23 x 10" and in the other 20 x 11".
Fortunately, the current regs are of no relevance to a Period house.

Ivor