Low and bowed ceiling

[Lozz]

Hi, I’m currently looking at properties in Cornwall and the main issue problem is usually the ceiling in the downstairs part of the buildings. Many are bowed and some are just too low. Some bowed ceilings have been rectified by the owners, jacking the bow out and inserting steel lintels across the room. We have found a property we love and the main room has a bowed ceiling. The problem is, I’m 6’4” and though the ceiling would ‘just’ be high enough after the repair the steel would be below head height. Is there an accepted method of doing this job that might cure this problem and still allow my to walk around bruise free.? The photo shows the room in question but unfortunately doesn’t show much detail. I can walk around most of the room but I actually ‘wedge’ just by the table. All help appreciated, thanks.

 

[RichT]

not sure where the steel lintels (beams) would go to jack up the floor - can you explain that better? By how much too low is the 'wedge'? You might strengthen extg joists by doubling them up or even every other one, and possibly then shave a bit off the bottom of each, perhaps just where they bow down, if you could live with the look of a thicker joist?

 

[Drayton]

Is there a structural problem with these beams, or is the problem your height?

 

[Lozz]

Thanks for the reply. I meant jack up the ceiling to remove the bow from the beams and then insert a steel to support the beam. One grade 2 listed building we viewed had done that and they were inserted as shown in the photo. The steels were boxed in so I have no idea of the fixings. The problem with that this inevitably takes another couple of inches from the head height and though it properly supports the ceiling, I had to duck to walk under the boxed in steel. This grade2 cottage had got unusually high ceilings the one I’m looking at isn’t quite as high. Doubling up on the thickness of the beams makes sense. I like the thought of that.

 

[Lozz]

Is there a structural problem with these beams, or is the problem your height?

It’s structural. If I stand in the middle I wedge between ceiling joist and floor if I stand towards the edges of the room there’s a clearance of an inch or so. The ceiling is bowed which obviously has a knock on for the walls etc above. The rest of the building has ‘quirks’(it’s 200yrs old) but I could live with those issues. This room is the main room into the property from outside so has to be right. The problem isn’t my height so I’ll not be booking myself in for a reduction of some sort.

 

[Drayton]

It could be 'right' - just not straight...

 

[aockenden]

I understand your dilemma perfectly. I'm 6'3", 6'4" with shoes on. Our downstairs was exactly the same in terms of being mostly ok-ish but a corner of one room my hair starting hitting the ceiling. The difference with ours is that our joists were NOT exposed, so the plasterboard was attached to the underside of the joists. So we pulled all the plasterboard off and sunk the new ceiling halfway up the 7-inch depth of the joist. So now we have exposed the bottom-half of our joists, and I've gained headroom equal to the depth of the plasterboard everywhere, plus I've gained an extra 3.5 inches anywhere in-between two joists which makes it feel MUCH less clausterphobic. That has made it liveable for me. We also will be digging up the poured-in cement slab and replacing it with an insulated lime-crete floor and at the same time dropping the internal finished floor levels by another 1/2 inch hopefully. Looks like your joists are already exposed and the ceiling sunk higher in between them which makes it more challenging for you. I guess dropping the floor levels and taking out the sag are the only real options?

 

[Lozz]

Really? You think that might be right? If that is the case how the hell could I get the couple of inches back that I heed for head height. Taking the floor down would be very involved and expensive.

 

[Lozz]

I understand your dilemma perfectly. I'm 6'3", 6'4" with shoes on. Our downstairs was exactly the same in terms of being mostly ok-ish but a corner of one room my hair starting hitting the ceiling. The difference with ours is that our joists were NOT exposed, so the plasterboard was attached to the underside of the joists. So we pulled all the plasterboard off and sunk the new ceiling halfway up the 7-inch depth of the joist. So now we have exposed the bottom-half of our joists, and I've gained headroom equal to the depth of the plasterboard everywhere, plus I've gained an extra 3.5 inches anywhere in-between two joists which makes it feel MUCH less clausterphobic. That has made it liveable for me. We also will be digging up the poured-in cement slab and replacing it with an insulated lime-crete floor and at the same time dropping the internal finished floor levels by another 1/2 inch hopefully. Looks like your joists are already exposed and the ceiling sunk higher in between them which makes it more challenging for you. I guess dropping the floor levels and taking out the sag are the only real options?

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. I hoped that members of this group would have the kind of experience you detail. We haven’t actually bought the house as yet, this is the issue we need to resolve before we do. Tbh It could well be the deal breaker. Digging floors without the seller reducing the sale price wouldn’t be viable. Thanks again.

 

[malcolm]

Beware of structural engineers in the process of de-bowing your ceiling. They'll do the calcs and determine your existing beams are insufficient for deflection (you know that already because that's what the bowing is) and they'll insist on something with deeper joists and even less head room

Floors are doable but a big job especially if your foundations are shallow and exterior ground levels would need to be lowered to match. Then there's convincing the listed building people that your plans are worthwhile. I would be looking for a house with more head room.

 

[Lozz]

Thanks for that. Noted. This property isn’t listed so no issues there but I take your point. Thanks.

 

[Kearn]

It feels like the wrong approach to an old building, timber does its thing over the centuries and should be left as such… unless it’s a structural failure, then the interference of steels isn’t required. There are many knock on implications of that method. It will damage other historic areas of the building in the walls, timbers and floor above, cost a fortune and as mentioned, once a structural engineer gets involved they won’t sign off on their liability without inflicting many other changes to meet modern standards. It’s certainly not a battle I would choose to pick faced with the option not to…

Usually the deflection will be very historic, green oak could move in its first 50 or so years, but bending back structural spine beams and floor joists isn’t going to happen now that they’ve set rock solid.

In old buildings, we tend to learn when and where to duck. 3 smacks of the head was enough for us to learn coming through our old bedroom doorway, regardless of how sleepy or how many glasses of vino!

 

[Lozz]

Thanks. Ducking now and again might work but as this is the main living area I think a permanent stoop would be the result.

 

[aockenden]

Thanks. I appreciate your comments. I hoped that members of this group would have the kind of experience you detail. We haven’t actually bought the house as yet, this is the issue we need to resolve before we do. Tbh It could well be the deal breaker. Digging floors without the seller reducing the sale price wouldn’t be viable. Thanks again.

Yes it’s certainly a big nasty dirty job digging out the floors. Not looking forward to it on ours tbh…

 

[CliffordPope]

I think there are only two solutions, other than living with it. Lower the floor or raise the ceiling.

There is actually a third option, and that's to lower your own height. I knew someone once who had two vertabrae removed from his spine, which achieved just that. But that was a surgical procedure for medical reasons, not just so he didn't bang his head on things.

 

[Kearn]

I think there are only two solutions, other than living with it. Lower the floor or raise the ceiling.

There is actually a third option, and that's to lower your own height. I knew someone once who had two vertabrae removed from his spine, which achieved just that. But that was a surgical procedure for medical reasons, not just so he didn't bang his head on things.

That’s probably the most appropriate… the house has stood for longer already and should continue to do so once the next custodians have long gone… interfering with historic floors, walls, ceilings any proportions for the sake of one persons short term convenience isn't the right approach.

 

[mardinor]

You are the wrong custodian for the house.

 

[Lozz]

I won’t be buying the property. The cost of the alterations would take it beyond its worth. I understand the seller is looking to advertise the property in Hobbit Weekly.
Thanks everyone for you help and interest.

 

[aockenden]

I won’t be buying the property. The cost of the alterations would take it beyond its worth. I understand the seller is looking to advertise the property in Hobbit Weekly.
Thanks everyone for you help and interest.

Probably a wise move. Good luck to you in your continuing search.

 

[RichT]

Some of the comments are putting this structural engineer off helping! One bad experience should not tar the whole profession!