Lost Listing!

[benmc]

Hi

Hope someone can help or advise.

Looks like the Grade II status of our house has somehow been 'lost', as far as we know nothing has changed in the 5+ years we have owned it, and we have multiple Listed building consent applications on this house.

It originally appeared here http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/default.aspx?pid=2&id=355628
but does not appear no the latest english heritage site.

Oddly, we can find it on the site below but it is marked as a Grade C!!!

http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-355628-church-of-all-saints-hemel-hempstead

Any advice on how to proceed?

Regards
Ben

 

[Keithj]

I remember Grades A B and C. They were used for churches until relatively recently. They became I, II*, and II at some point around 1980 or when EH got round to updating their records.

 

[Keithj]

I had a closer look and found Piccotts End. It seems the older listings have been copied across and the detail lost. There are no names for most of the listed buildings in the village, which means the normal search function doesn't work. There seems to be a group of properties that were listed together in a previous system.
The system also doesn't recognise Piccotts End as a valid place name, which doesn't help.

If you go to http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/advancedsearch.aspx then click Location,
Select Hertfordshire, Dacorum in the top two boxes
Then in the Place/Site/Street Name box type Piccotts End and click "Search", it will give you a list of 15 entries. Most are named "No name for this Entry".
I suspect yours is one of those. Your ID 355628 doesn't seem to be recognised by the EH system - all the numbers for Piccotts End are 7-digit starting with 1.
For example:
http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1251025
http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1051084

Mine shows up... http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1183233

 

[Keithj]

Being a curious bunny, I contacted EH (I've had a lot of dealings with them recently about our church), and this was the answer:

Thank you for your enquiry.

I can confirm that the Church of All Saints, Piccotts End was removed from the List on the 15th December 2010. If you wish to speak to someone in more detail about the removal of the building from the List, please contact:

Gaynor Roberts, Designation Coordinator
01223 582725
ApplicationsEast<at>english-heritage <dot>org<dot>uk

Please let me know if I can help any further.

 

[Flyfisher]

I realise that the owner has little influence over the listing or de-listing of a property, but surely the relevant authority would inform the current owner of any changes?

If benmc has made multiple LBC applications since the apparent delisting in 2010, has he wasted his time and how could his local council grant LBC on a property no longer listed?

 

[benmc]

I am following the same trail. Makes no sense to me as I am sure we have LBC after 2010, feels like a mistake in the paperwork somewhere!

Ben

 

[Keithj]

If you had LBC, it presumably means repair works could then have been done without VAT being charged (until the VAT exemption came off).

 

[Keithj]

Sounds to me like a swift phone call to Gaynor Roberts would be a plan.

 

[benmc]

On the phone now!

 

[benmc]

Gaynor is going to look into it. Appears there was some work a few years ago to update the ecclesiastical listings but no properties should have been de-listed through this process

Ben

 

[garnett]

Hi

Don't forget you are not dealing with the secular planning authority. The mainstream churches have their own arrangements for dealing with LBC. We LGCOs only get involved if planning permission is required for the works as well.

Have you spoken with the Diocesan Secretary? Also what was said on the last quinquenial inspection?

Garnett

 

[garnett]

Me again

Just looked at the photo. When was it made redundant? Was there an LBC when it came back under secular planning to make it habitable?

Garnett

 

[Gareth Hughes]

as far as I can see from the local planning authority's website, the only listed building consent application for the property since it was delisted was one providing details of windows and doors, required as part of a lbc that was granted three years earlier, when the building was still listed. A complicated situation - and I wonder too whether permitted developments rights were removed anyway back when permission was given to convert the church into a house?

 

[MatthewC]

How does a place get de-listed anyway? Who can ask who to do it? Is there a formal process? If this one has been de-listed, it sounds as thought EH have done it off their own bat.

In the same line, is there a process to amend the listing? The one for my house is wrong in so many ways...

 

[benmc]

Just taking this all in but unsure how to proceed

'I can confirm that the building was indeed de-listed. English Heritage carried out a project in 2010 in order to consistently grade churches before the launching of the National Heritage List for England (NHLE) and limited notification took place.

The local authority were notified about the decision to de-list. I attach a copy of the letter, which states that the church had lost its special interest. The letter states that the authority were required to notify the owner. I am very sorry that English Heritage did not notify you directly at the time of delisting.'

 

[Flyfisher]

Well, at least that explains how such things should. Perhaps, being generous, the letter from the LA was lost in the post?

As for MatthewC's point about amending a listing description, I would guess that would have to be something discussed with the CO. However, it does rIse the rather worrying point about the risks of raising such inaccuracies if they have been the result of unauthorised alterations. I suppose it depends of the nature of the inaccuracies.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/professional/protection/process/amending-an-entry

 

[benmc]

I am at a loss on how to proceed. Cannot understand how EH can remove a listing stating original features have been lost without visiting the property. If they had, they would have see all of the original features we had uncovered!!!

I have involved the local MP and leader of the council, don't see any other option at this point

Ben

 

[Flyfisher]

Probably the first thing to do is to address the question directly to EH. I can't see how your MP or council leader (or anyone else really) can form a judgement about a matter without a clear statement of what has been done, by whom, and for what reason. Only by knowing those things could anyone decide if something amiss has occurred.

In this case, it seems that EH has delisted your property but for some, as yet, unknown reason. So we have two of the three answers but I think the third answer ('why?') is needed before any escalation is sensible.

Another point to consider is whether any of it really matters? I don't think I'd be particularly bothered if EH decided to delist our house.

 

[garnett]

Hello

I can easily see situations like this occurring. Applications for listed building consent are recommended for refusal by officers, but then granted by members as is their democratic right. The permitted works impact so much on the fabric of a listed building that it means that it is no longer special enough to be listed.

In the case of a church building, this could be the removal of pews, galleries or organ etc. Also my own pet hate which is the sub division of the nave. An open nave is key to the character of a church. Once this is lost and broken into rooms, the building would loose its special historic interest.

Members may be balancing the building being empty and causing crime etc. in trying to find a use for the building.

This happens all too frequently i'm afraid.

Garnett