Looking for Advice - Possible Byre Conversion

[bazza1603]

Hi,

We are looking for advice on a possible conversion. We are in a lucky position and have been offered a Byre to convert to a house by the wife's parents. Due to a number of facts we would need to complete the project on a budget of about £50-60K, and we are a little lost how to start. I should have another 20k left over, but I want to leave something in reserve.

There is a farm close by that have got planning permission and theyare due to start work soon on a very similar building. I am hoping these people will be a good source of knowledge.

Its been well looked after and as far as I can tell it does not suffer any damp. The roof was new about 20 years ago, but currently has a tin roof. The building does not have any listings on it.

Attached to the rear of the byre is a small car port. Its a mixture of stone and wood. This is the bit I am worried about with regards to budget and planning permission

It has electric and water but this is a feed from the attached main farm house. The farm house also has a phone line. Heating for the farm house is by oil. Can anyone seen any major bills here with connections?

I have seen a simliar conversion in Italy and they had major problems with waste from the animal living area due to animal muck. Does this apply in the UK?

http://www.higgott.myzen.co.uk/byre.htm

What do people think? Can You see any problems from the pictures?

Best regards

Barry and Jill

 

[Gervase]

It's hard to put a cost on the installation of new phone and electicity supplies, as much depends on where they're coming from. It could cost a couple of hundred, it could go over a thousand. You'd really need to get your electricity board and BT engineers to give you a quote on that.
As for the conversion itself, you'll have to comply with the new-style building regs as you're converting an agricultural building to a dwelling, and the BCO may be fairly stringent.
Your first course of action should be to apply for plannng permission. If you start with outline, you've got time to think about the exact design of the structure at a later date, whereas if you go for full, you'll probably need to provide plans now - and that will include plans for drainage and sewage etc (for which you'll probably need to dig a pit for a septic tank and allow for a soakaway if you're not near the mains).
Much depends on how practical you are and how much you want to do yourselves. The easiest course is to appoint an artchitect, who will draw up the plans and help with the submission proces - but you'll need to find one whose work you like. An awful lot of architects who do conversions end up ruining the aesthetics of the building.
CADW, the Welsh equivalent of English Heritage, has published an excellent book on converting buildings, which you can download in two parts at:
http://www.cadw.wales.gov.uk/upload/resourcepool/Converting%20Historic%20Farm%20Buildings%2029854.pdf
and:
http://www.cadw.wales.gov.uk/upload/resourcepool/Converting%20Historic%20Farm%20Buildings%2013206.pdf

 

[middi]

Yes you are lucky !!.

Looking at the pics your 50,60 k's should be enough for a new roof, heating, adequate kitchen and plastering with new electrics installed.

It very much depends if you contract all the work to a builder or you manage the project , do some of the work yourself and get specialist in for certain aspects of the repairs.

Either way I would not count on having 20 k left over by the time you are ready to move in. That is a promise!!!.

I was going to wish you good luck, then thought " how lucky can you get ".

Good luck anyway, and go for it.

 

[bazza1603]

Hi,

Thanks for that

Does anyone have any good links for the new style building regs? My mate is a good electrician with Part P and I cannot use Gas, as I am no where near a supply. What are the regs like for oil heating?

With regards to the electric. Its by overhead cables which are about 15 metres to the byre. Does this make it easier?

Regards

Barry

 

[middi]

The last lot of regulations I recall which were paramount on oil heating installation, apart from correct boiler installation as per instruction supplied, was that the oil supply reservoir has to be 5 meters away from habitable buildings , if not, encased in fire proof shelter.

An automatic external, heat sensitive, oil shut off valve must be fitted before the oil supply enters the building.

 

[biffvernon]

Department for Local Government and Communities (DLGC) (what used to be ODPM) has a website from which you can download all the Building Regulations here and the Planning Portal is another invaluable government website.

Let me know when you want some windows.

 

[Nemesis]

Hmmmm. Northumberland / Durham?

It's not going to be a place which can be converted without losing a great deal of the character of a barn I have to say. Would take a very good architect to draw up plans, and be prepared for a great deal of compromise.

Far too many traditional farm buildings are being lost to conversion to houses. For some it's possible, others - not without ruining them.
I assume too that that's the parents house next to it.

English Heritage has published new advice:

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.10600

It may be very hard to sell one or the other in future, if both are dwellings. Not everyone will want to live so close to another house, and maybe you won't be able to sell and move on if it proves to be too small for you in the future. It may be OK with the main house owners to have family next to them, but how will they feel about strangers? These are things to consider before anything else.

The first thing you will need is change of use - no good spending any money if you can't get that. The local authority needs to be consulted regarding this. There may be policies which would come into play here which could prevent conversion to a dwelling.


http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.5839

 

[Penners]

As Nemesis has said, before you spend any money at all, you need to discuss your plans with the local planning department, to make absolutely sure that converting the barn into a dwelling is permissable. If they agree to this, then I would follow Garvase's advice and initially apply for outline planning permission. This then gives you the chance to go into the cost of a full design spec for quotation purposes in the knowledge that - in principle - the conversion will be permitted.

Throughout the whole planning process, it's always worth having informal discussions with your planners before you make any formal applications. They can then help to steer you towards what will or won't be permissable. This can help you to avoid disappointments and wasted costs.

Once you apply for full PP then you will, of course need to apply for Building Regs too. On that score, I don't think your source of heat (oil, gas, etc.) will be as important as the measures you take to insulate the building.

Regarding the services, the electricity, water and phone will all have to be routed to the barn independently of the main house, and the cost of this will depend on whether the existing supplies have the capacity to be branched off to supply another property. If new, additional supplies have to be laid, then this will inflate the cost - by how much depends on how far from the road you are.

In the pictures, the building looks good and sound, although I suspect that the existing roof structure may not be up to the job of supporting a full tile or slate roof.

The floor looks as though it's channeled into a runnel in the middle (for obvious reasons). You would presumably need to level this off anyway, so getting rid of any animal muck shouldn't be a problem at that time, should it?

 

[bazza1603]

I am looking at Google before posting more questions. I now have a host of favorite bookmarks that I didnot have before.

Can anyone point me in the direction to look at insulation in keeping with the building. I had hoped to go down the route of lime plaster. Would this and the thickness of the walls be enough, or would there be something between them? Or would I be better going for modern plaster?

Would there be any benefit of saying this is an extention to the farm house each with a kitchen, and then look at seperating further down the line?

Regards

Barry

 

[Gervase]

Lime plaster is the only way to go with a stone building like this which doesn't have concrete foundations. It's the only stuff that will flex with the movement of the building without cracking, and which will breathe to allow moisture to transpire.
However...
You may have problems with your building control officer regarding the new building regs. Current policy for many in the absence of any sensible guidelines other than the published Part L is to insist that stone walls are drylined with plasterboard on counterbattens, with either Celotex or Tri-iso super 10 in the gap, which will make lime plastering pointless. It will also ruin the look of the interior, sadly, and lose you around four inches of floor space all round.
If your BCO looks like going down this route, call on your local conservation officer and explain to him or her what you want to achieve. You're not in as strong a position as you would be if the building was already residential, as agricultural buildings are deemed to be unfit for habitation as they stand and thus liable to all modern building regs, unlike listed dwellings and those in conservation areas.
Even if you class it as an extension, you won't escape building regs - and you would actually make the farmhouse liable to 'interpretation' under the new regs, which could be nasty!
If you have any problems, drop me an email via the link below.

 

[biffvernon]

Tri-iso super 10 is is the subject of much controversy. Gervase, have you been following the long and winding multifoils thread on Green Buildings Forum?

To insulate old barn walls of this ilk I'd sacrifice the four inches (or more) but use Thermafleece in the studwork and cover with lath and lime plaster or clayboard and lime plaster. That can look much the same as plastering directly on the wall as in days of old but keeps you much warmer.

 

[Gervase]

Tri-iso super 10 is is the subject of much controversy. Gervase, have you been following the long and winding multifoils thread on Green Buildings Forum?

Not 'arf, although I can't swear to be able to quote every one of the 53 pages of argument from memory. Personally I wouldn't touch the stuff, and not just because it's not recognised by Building Regs (and why oh why do architects still specify the damned stuff?).

The problem with dry-lining, even with friendly materials like sheep's wool and clay board, is what to do with the window reveals. If you take the lining into the reveals you end up with tiny windows, and if you don't you negate a lot of the effect of the lining.
My own feeling is that the thermal mass of the wall, coupled with three coats of haired lime plaster on the inside, is pretty efficient, particularly if you address the issue - as the government suggests - on a 'whole house' basis, with better insulation in other areas, a modern condensing boiler and more efficient and fewer windows (and barn conversions do tend to err on the side of too much glass, even on aesthetic grounds).
The problem is that there are no figures available which even hint at a U-value for such a construction, so BCOs are unlikely to be impressed, with just the current Approved Docs to guide them.

 

[GK]

Nah, sorry, got to disagree on two counts.

You negate a little of the effect of dry-lining if you don't do the reveals but it's only a tiny fraction of the overall benefit of insulating the walls.

The thermal mass thing. It doesn't compensate for poor insulation. In fact a high thermal mass masonry wall will cost you a load of cash to heat up and more of that heat will go outside than stay in. If you insulate on the outside, it'll still cost you loads to heat it up but it will gradually release to the interior, maybe when you're not in occupation. Insulate on the inside, you'll get a faster, cheaper warm up and you'll still keep the heat in. High thermal mass isn't something you aim for from an efficiency point of view in a domestic dwelling.

To get the same level of insulation as 75mm of modern, environmentally unfriendly foam stuff would require over 4.6 metres thickness of limestone wall. Or about 130mm of Thermafleece.

 

[Nemesis]

'A modern condensing boiler' is not always possible. No gas, oil is a no no...

And I agree about the problems with dry lining. We have a barn where the roughly washed walls and the stone door framing is a major feature - it would be impossible to dry line and make it look anything except a dog's dinner.

It had actually windows inserted many years ago, so light isn't a major issue. What is a problem with many barn conversions is the fact that in order to try to get light in many stick an overabundance of large Velux roof lights. Grim.

I had a friend who converted a byre on a farm in Wales for parents. Friend died and it took several years for her husband to sell the farm as no-one wanted, in the midst of many acres, to buy a farm without a byre and with strangers slap bang next door.

A number of local authorities are now clamping down on domestic conversion as it's so easy to spoil a simple vernacular building. They prefer some sort of business use, which is less intrusive in terms of services etc. So that's the first thing to do - check with the local authority that any sort of conversion is allowed.

 

[Gervase]

To get the same level of insulation as 75mm of modern, environmentally unfriendly foam stuff would require over 4.6 metres thickness of limestone wall.

Could you point me towards the source of the U value for masonry? Is that based on a rubble core or solid single-skin ashlar? I've been hunting everywhere for any guide as to the thermal efficiency of stonework, and figures that don't include some form of battening and air space are proving hard to find.

 

[GK]

R-value of 75mm Kingspan = 3.25 U = 0.31
R-value of 100mm Thermafleece = 2.58
R-value of 150mm Thermafleece = 3.87
(from http://www.secondnatureuk.com/data.htm)
R-value of Limestone .0007 per mm
(from "Central Heating: a design and installation manual". George Steele)

So, .0007 x 4642mm = 3.25, the same as 75mm Kingspan

Or, say, 400mm thickness of limestone .0007 x 400 = 0.28 U-value = 3.57

You've got to factor in the air spaces and boundary layers if you really want to go to the far end...

I've done a quick Google for R-values but they are all coming up as imperial.

Hope I got the right number of decimal places...

 

[Penners]

To get the same level of insulation as 75mm of modern, environmentally unfriendly foam stuff would require over 4.6 metres thickness of limestone wall.

Could you point me towards the source of the U value for masonry? Is that based on a rubble core or solid single-skin ashlar? I've been hunting everywhere for any guide as to the thermal efficiency of stonework, and figures that don't include some form of battening and air space are proving hard to find.

Speaking as a total amateur, I'm staggered that there is no central registry of definitive U-values for every conceivable type of wall construction.

OK, I accept that there will always be some enitrely eccentric building methods that cannot realistically be catalogued, but surely you could cover the huge majority of construction types with less than, say, 50 records.

 

[plumbers mate]

A bit late on this as I don't use computers ate the weekend.
The barn looks like a traditional type of Northumbrian building - but will be very dark inside as there aren't many opening suitable for windows.
The Dovecote in the lean to bit would have to stay too.

It would be a huge shame if this building had holes knocked in to provide new windows - and that would be pricey as they would have to have the correct quoins etc.

 

[Gervase]

Speaking as a total amateur, I'm staggered that there is no central registry of definitive U-values for every conceivable type of wall construction.

I know, it's crazy, but there isn't. The BRE likes to think it has most types of construction listed but, from a point of view of 'facts of record' that can be used in an argument with, say, a building inspector, an awful lot pertinent to what we do isn't listed. Rubble stone isn't, there's not a lot meaningful on cob, and wattle and daub doesn't seem to get a mention as far as I can make out.
All of them behave very differently from single-skin brick, yet that seems to be the nearest comparison used by most BCOs. Which is bonkers.

 

[GK]

Maybe there is. BRE has a comprehensive U-value calculation document here
http://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/BR_443_(2006_Edition).pdf
which says that for any materials not specified by BRE then consult BS EN 12524 which is available here
http://www.standardsdirect.org/standards/standards5/StandardsCatalogue24_view_9459.html
So, fork out £52 and it might have the answers

The first link seems to work only if you copy and paste it

Gervase, it's unlikely you will find a table of U-values, I think. I presume you know that you can calculate your own U-value from the R-value of the individual components? Or are you finding the BCOs in disagreement with your sums?